Assisted dying

[Don Karleone]

I don't see it as a good thing, I'm sorry.

 

[johnny crossan]

Are you sure? It can only be delusional that people believe in a ‘sky god’, surely? To probably misquote Douglas Adams and the Babel Fish.

"The argument goes something like this: 'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith, I am nothing.' 'But, says Man, the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.' 'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and vanishes in a puff of logic. 'Oh, that was easy,' says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing……

A cross between modus tollens and modus podens which renders both syllogisms invalid.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

I'm in favour of assisted dying but the direction of travel is clear. Coupled to the decreasing pension provision, costs of old age / palliative care and the cost of housing, either gen X or y will be doing themselves in so the kids can have a house. Not quite Logan's run, but give it a few more generations and we won't be far off.

 

[VOOMER]

Utterly evil decision.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Religious folk often regard atheists as delusional, not sure the characterisation is very helpful to understanding either group tbh.

I’d say believing there is some Supreme Being overseeing 7+ billion lives and judging us at every moment to determine if we are good enough to enter his kingdom when we die is a smidge more delusional, or at least irrational, than there isn’t.

But, to each their own. Some people think the world is flat, Trump isn’t a con man, and Putin isn’t a stone cold killer of anyone who gets in his way.

Whatever.

I won’t miss a wink of sleep thinking God might smite me for thinking he’s a figment of the imagination of weak minds being controlled by an ancient patriarchy seeking to wield power over them. Rather, I’ll just be a good person to the people with whom I have interactions and hope that others will attempt the same, so we can all live in a better world.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Utterly evil decision.

Interesting, rather loaded, word.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

I don't see it as a good thing, I'm sorry.

Much like abortion, it’s not meant to be lauded as a “good” thing, but rather a necessary thing…for those that choose or need it.

Not everything is good or bad, or should be characterized that way.

 

[Bill Walker]

Why does it have to be a medic that helps the person die? Can it not just be someone with the specific medical training for pain and the drugs being used?

Vets are very good at it.

 

[Don Karleone]

Much like abortion, it’s not meant to be lauded as a “good” thing, but rather a necessary thing…for those that choose or need it.

Not everything is good or bad, or should be characterized that way.

It's those who are coerced into it that I'm worried about. I'm not against it completely if the safeguards are there.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

It's those who are coerced into it that I'm worried about. I'm not against it completely if the safeguards are there.

Guardrails are always important, but the vast, vast majority of people would prefer to choose the date and time of their death than live in pain and abject misery.

I can only speak for myself, but the cottage industry that has blown up squeezing every last penny from the infirm, bleeding them dry of their last dime in high priced assisted living facilities with substandard medical care, is far more distasteful to me than someone choosing not to go through it.

My wife and I each have Healthcare POA over the other, and have made sure that we each understand the other’s personal wishes regarding end of life care, stipulating it in our trusts.

 

[urban genie]

Hilarious tories and right wing agitators are anti this just so they can moan at labour.

They have been murdering by stealth the sick, disabled, elderly and poor since Ian Duncan Shit was in the DW&P

 

[Don Karleone]

Hilarious tories and right wing agitators are anti this just so they can moan at labour.

They have been murdering by stealth the sick, disabled, elderly and poor since Ian Duncan Shit was in the DW&P

It hasn't been by stealth, it's been out in the open. People have chosen not to take any interest. Willful ignorance is the default setting for a lot of people in this country when it comes to issues that they think will never affect them.

 

[urban genie]

It hasn't been by stealth, it's been out in the open. People have chosen not to take any interest. Willful ignorance is the default setting for a lot of people in this country when it comes to issues that they think will never affect them.

Oh I know it was openly done, especially by that fist pumping bald ****, but I say by stealth because they had several media outlets convince people otherwise.

 

[journolud]

It is only religion, and religion’s hold on law and morality, that have withheld a dignified and humane death from the many who have sought it in the sanctity of their own home or country.

Not quite true. It is ironically advances in medical and nursing care that have to a large extent led to people living longer than they otherwise would while suffering from illnesses that torture and torment them.

I’ve worked in end of life care, albeit with patients with dementia so those not afforded the option of a dignified death by this bill. There does seem to be a pointlessness to tending to, feeding, medicating helpless dying individuals.

There is by the way a Religion thread for those who want to go over the same old grounds about that. I’ve not heard many of the people arguing against this bill use the religious argument. The sanctity of life can be held by secularists as well.

We do get to hear the accusation that proponents of assisted dying are “playing God” but by the same token we could be said to be doing that by using our skill and expertise to keep people alive who without such invasive intervention would die.

 

[Marriedtoablue]

I agree there is no point and I’m sure the person would agree too. I thought they would feed via a drip but from what you are saying, this is not the case at end stage?

We don’t artificially feed someone who is dying no. There’s a point at which this becomes futile, the body is dying and feeding it won’t prevent that death.

Artificial fluids and feed when someone is dying comforts the family and not the patient. The body as it goes through the dying phase struggles to process fluids - they end up in the wrong place within the body pooling on such areas as the lungs/chest - this is a huge part of why you will hear what is often referred to as the death rattle.

Cannulation to deliver those fluids is also painful as the veins tend to become very difficult to use - cannulation is invasive and performing an invasive procedure on a dying patient is cruel and undignified.

If someone can eat/drink they are fed, if they can’t and life can be saved they are given IV/NG feeding/hydration.

If they are dying, death is a natural process and they should not have needless shoves in them and we should look to help with sips of fluid if possible or good mouth care.

We need to be better at recognising deterioration and the dying process.

2 weeks ago my friends dad died, he died with 2 cannulas in, he had ben pulled about, rehydrated, fluids stopped when bloods taken no longer showed dehydration but within 24/48 hours given it all again.

I visited him often, it was clear to me from my palliative care background he was dying, I told the nurses he was dying, he had periods of real alertness and they looked at me like I was mad.

But he couldn’t sustain his body - had reached his natural end, his desire to eat/drink gone. Finished his days with maybe 1-2 spoons of food each meal time.

He was miserable stuck in a hospital bed, and in the end died alone with no one except me calling it he was dying.

His daughter sent home only 2 hours earlier with the Dr saying he wasn’t palliative.

I’d repositioned him in bed a few days earlier and let me tell you he was cachexic
I could feel every bone in his back.

So you see, all those fluids made no difference, maybe kept him going a few more days but what his treatment did was prolong his death. Those fluids shoved into a body that by very nature didn’t need or want them made more urination for which he had to be moved around more to deal with, made a wet chest because his body tissues became leaky and didn’t save his life.

To deliver them he had needles shoved into retracted veins with more than one attempt at cannulation needed to do so, thin frail skinned arms that barely had any fat on.

We need to be better at recognising impending death, better at supporting people to die naturally but without pain.

Flip that over to someone in their 40’s with a life limiting illness and 6-12 months to live and it’s absolutely correct we artificially feed/hydrate not doing so would’ve killing them.

But the fact remains that most people ( not all) that argue about the not giving food/fluids have witnessed their elderly relatives die without bags of fluid.

Apparently that’s barbaric and cruel not to shove needles into someone who is naturally dying but it’s ok to shove a needle into someone who still has 6-12 months to live.

To me you can’t have it both ways.

You can have a terminal illness for years but you become actually terminal only a short time before death.

 

[Blue Maverick]

In a civilized world not to be able to be given a choice of dying a slow painful death or the ability to go out dignified boggles the the mind. Take out the nutters who believe in a made up entity and any sane person would hate to see a loved one suffer. As long as these decisions are made by the person who it pertains to, we have Do Not Rescuitate in place already that have to be done by that person, what is the problem. People deciding to die just to give their loved ones money, well I’d like to think if the relationship is that good the families would have non of it. We don’t let animals we love suffer yet we do to humans, it’s scandalous.

 

[Marriedtoablue]

Nobody has any right to decide if someone who makes this very hard decision is doing it for romantic reasons. As for moral, legal and practical? Again, what has that got to with anybody else?

It has a lot to do with those expected to administer or provide the drugs.

Your choice and very easy to say unless you have actually lived through that sort of event... If my loved one had been helped on their way to end suffering I'd be reporting nobody...

That’s my point. It shouldn’t. Whichever government in charge at the time should be solely in charge of making sure it’s policed properly, not deciding wherever it’s right or wrong for the person deciding.
Your wife might not be up for it, that’s her choice.
Thankfully I’m sure there would be others to take her place.

And that’s the point of this taking so long and the need to ensure every Chanel is done correctly.

People want their choice to die, us professionals want the choice to not be assisting, you are correct there will be some who are happy to do so but I must say I am yet to find a colleague who would.

This will need centres I think, but even then with willing staff there’s a lot to think of because that too will have impsct

So your point about drugs being available is a little moot... They have to be deployed in a timely manner and at the correct doses to be totally effective...

The point about your wife having to get "vocal" also suggests that many people end their lives in pain and suffering because they don't have a specialist palliative care nurse in their inner circle..

Not arguing about the specifics of any case, I'm just saying that if my loved one was in pain and a healthcare professional took that pain away i'd be grateful not vengeful...

So your point about drugs being available is a little moot... They have to be deployed in a timely manner and at the correct doses to be totally effective...

The point about your wife having to get "vocal" also suggests that many people end their lives in pain and suffering because they don't have a specialist palliative care nurse in their inner circle..

Not arguing about the specifics of any case, I'm just saying that if my loved one was in pain and a healthcare professional took that pain away i'd be grateful not vengeful...

No not the case. I got vocal because they were pumping him full of fluids - ironically what a lot of people who argue this assisted suicide shout about claiming we starve and dehydrate patients.

He was being pumped with fluids - fluids were not being processed by his body and were pooling on his chest ( that’s what happens when you give artificial fluids to someone who’s dying) To combat the fluids they were injecting meds to dry his chest up.

The only reason I got vocal was because of the above and also the fact that he had explicitly said he didn’t want to be readmitted to hospital, but mostly because he was distressed with all the fluids and high dose oxygen.

Once removed he calmed, had sips of fluid as he wanted/was able and died peacefully a week later. His death was not traumatic for him but it was for the family,

You are however part correct that he was lucky as he did have me in his circle, he was then looked after by members of the team I worked in but received the exact same care as anyone else we looked after.

However yes, me recognising he was dying meant the team got involved sooner than n my at have happened, but that goes to prove we need to improve identification of death and its management better.

 

[johnny crossan]

I’d say believing there is some Supreme Being overseeing 7+ billion lives and judging us at every moment to determine if we are good enough to enter his kingdom when we die is a smidge more delusional, or at least irrational, than there isn’t.

But, to each their own. Some people think the world is flat, Trump isn’t a con man, and Putin isn’t a stone cold killer of anyone who gets in his way.

Whatever.

I won’t miss a wink of sleep thinking God might smite me for thinking he’s a figment of the imagination of weak minds being controlled by an ancient patriarchy seeking to wield power over them. Rather, I’ll just be a good person to the people with whom I have interactions and hope that others will attempt the same, so we can all live in a better world.

I'm not sure believing 90% of the current world population and 99.9% of those who have ever lived have weak minds would be comfort. Being a 'good' person for most relies on their being some source of value outside their own choice of meaning in the matter - the examples you give are cases in point.

 

[johnny crossan]

Hilarious tories and right wing agitators are anti this just so they can moan at Labour

Like Gordon Brown as previously discussed?

 

[johnny crossan]

....People deciding to die just to give their loved ones money, well I’d like to think if the relationship is that good the families would have non of it. We don’t let animals we love suffer yet we do to humans, it’s scandalous.

The proven danger of coercion, including self-coercion, is the primary reason why the state should never sanction assisted suicide.