The perfect fumble
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The Conservative Party
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bluethrunthru
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The Party of fiscal responsibility my fucking arse
gordondaviesmoustache
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Strictly speaking it wasn’t a misquote but it was a dishonest representation of what @The perfect fumble had said.
Is it true that "only the left uses the label culture wars"? No. it's not a dishonest representation.
(It's not true because the person who posted that is not of the left but used the label.)
The perfect fumble
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gordondaviesmoustache
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By omitting that part of the sentence you dishonestly represented what @The perfect fumble said, irrespective of the accuracy of what they were asserting.
Your subsequent input only served to underline this as it was plainly a conscious rather than an inadvertent step, thereby rendering it to be dishonest rather than negligent, so thanks for further proving my point.
meltonblue
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The perfect fumble
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Is an issue made more significant, or is it belittled by being labelled culture wars?
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meltonblue
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Depends who is saying it, the motivation is different if we’re talking about people from either side of politics and their use of it and on the circumstance. Those that use it in neutral commentary, I don’t think it does either.
Personally I don’t like any adoption of US style politics or rhetoric.
The perfect fumble
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Precisely.
If the right wing label something culture wars it's....
From Jan 2024...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12994083/DAILY-MAIL-COMMENT-Tories-braver-culture-wars.html
"Britain's institutions, seats of learning and charities are increasingly gripped by vocal minorities who trash our culture, decry our history, and seek to 'cancel' anyone who dares to challenge them....
He (Rishi Sunak) must be bold, and unequivocal in honouring our history (warts and all) and defending free expression."
In other words important stuff.
When the left labels something culture wars it's still important stuff, but labeling it culture wars immediately trashes the motives of those that raise the issue and therefore trivialises their concerns and by dint the issue itself. Take trans, the left sees the issue as done and dusted, trans rights are human rights, anyone who questions this view citing sex based rights, gay rights and child safeguarding, is lying, they're not motivated by these things, but motivated instead by hate, using the issue in their culture wars to set one group against another.
And when you see stuff like this, they've got to be right, right?...
I don't think I'm alone in thinking Trump doesn't give a shiny shite about this issue, he cares only about what this issue can do for him politically and that's what he did...
Culture wars as hate, setting one group against another to distract from the real issues like poverty, unemployment, healthcare, homelessness and so on.
Debate over, right?
No.
Because bad faith actors use association to disparage their opponents, you know the silly line, Hitler was a vegetarian therefore all vegetarians are like Hitler, a fascist. Elements of the left have always seen association as a very useful political tool, silly or not. The left reckons Trump is a fascist and he's about to bring in legislation to trash trans right! So anyone who agrees with that legislation is a fascist, that's how it is.
End of story.
Or there's how I see it, he's going to bring in legislation to safeguard children, particularly gay kids, he's going to restore sex based rather than gender based rights, and he's going to ban puberty blockers, so on this I agree with Trump, so I must be just like Trump, right? A fascist, motivated by hate, that's how it goes....That's how you delegitimise a cause, so if I'm a fascist...
They must be too...
Except they're not.
I'm not asking you to believe what I believe, I'm not even asking you to believe that I'm not driven by extreme right wing dogma, or religious zeal or any one of a dozen other hateful motives, the only thing I want, and the woman above want, is for the left to stop denying the possibility that there is any merit whatsoever to any of their concerns, because as far as the left is concerned there's no debate and we're all haters.
And in the culture wars non- debate, no platforming, cancelling and so on is the exclusive preserve of the left.
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meltonblue
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Precisely.
If the right wing label something culture wars it's....
From Jan 2024...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12994083/DAILY-MAIL-COMMENT-Tories-braver-culture-wars.html
"Britain's institutions, seats of learning and charities are increasingly gripped by vocal minorities who trash our culture, decry our history, and seek to 'cancel' anyone who dares to challenge them....
He (Rishi Sunak) must be bold, and unequivocal in honouring our history (warts and all) and defending free expression."
In other words important stuff.
When the left labels something culture wars it's still important stuff, but labeling it culture wars immediately trashes the motives of those that raise the issue and therefore trivialises their concerns and by dint the issue itself. Take trans, the left sees the issue as done and dusted, trans rights are human rights, anyone who questions this view citing sex based rights, gay rights and child safeguarding, is lying, they're not motivated by these things, but motivated instead by hate, using the issue in their culture wars to set one group against another.
And when you see stuff like this, they've got to be right, right?...
I don't think I'm alone in thinking Trump doesn't give a shiny shite about this issue, he cares only about what this issue can do for him politically and that's what he did...
Culture wars as hate, setting one group against another to distract from the real issues like poverty, unemployment, healthcare, homelessness and so on.
Debate over, right?
No.
Because bad faith actors use association to disparage their opponents, you know the silly line, Hitler was a vegetarian therefore all vegetarians are like Hitler, a fascist. Elements of the left have always seen association as a very useful political tool, silly or not. The left reckons Trump is a fascist and he's about to bring in legislation to trash trans right! So anyone who agrees is a fascist, that's how it is.
End of story.
Or how I see it, he's going to bring in legislation to safeguard children, particularly gay kids, he's going to restore sex based rather than gender based rights, and he's going to ban puberty blockers, and I agree with that legislation, so I must be just like Trump, right, A fascist, motivated by hate, that's how it goes....That's how you delegitimise a cause, so if I'm a fascist
they must be too...
Except they're not.
I'm not asking you to believe what believe, I'm not even asking you to believe that I'm not really motivated by extreme right wing dogma, or religious zeal or any one of a dozen other hateful motives, the only thing I want, and the woman above want, is for the left to stop denying the possibility that there is any merit whatsoever to any of their concerns, because as far as the left is concerned there's no debate and we're all haters.
And in the culture wars non- debate, no platforming, cancelling and so on is the exclusive preserve of the left.
In how those in politics look to use the label, that’s how those on the right would perceive the left’s use of it, the left would perceive the right’s use of it as being a way of trying to stoke division for their own personal gain.
Ultimately, both sides try and use it to devalue and delegitimise the debate (that daily mail article being a good example) and I wouldn’t trust anyone on either side that does as I think both are guilty of dumbing down debate and assuming people must fall into a binary left or right position whereas the vast majority don’t and wouldn’t agree with either sides position, they’d be somewhere in the middle and more nuanced in their thinking (the trans debate being a prime example).
Like I said, it’s importing US rhetoric and political behaviours and I’m not a fan of it at all.
Precisely.
If the right wing label something culture wars it's....
From Jan 2024...
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12994083/DAILY-MAIL-COMMENT-Tories-braver-culture-wars.html
"Britain's institutions, seats of learning and charities are increasingly gripped by vocal minorities who trash our culture, decry our history, and seek to 'cancel' anyone who dares to challenge them....
He (Rishi Sunak) must be bold, and unequivocal in honouring our history (warts and all) and defending free expression."
In other words important stuff.
When the left labels something culture wars it's still important stuff, but labeling it culture wars immediately trashes the motives of those that raise the issue and therefore trivialises their concerns and by dint the issue itself. Take trans, the left sees the issue as done and dusted, trans rights are human rights, anyone who questions this view citing sex based rights, gay rights and child safeguarding, is lying, they're not motivated by these things, but motivated instead by hate, using the issue in their culture wars to set one group against another.
And when you see stuff like this, they've got to be right, right?...
I don't think I'm alone in thinking Trump doesn't give a shiny shite about this issue, he cares only about what this issue can do for him politically and that's what he did...
Culture wars as hate, setting one group against another to distract from the real issues like poverty, unemployment, healthcare, homelessness and so on.
Debate over, right?
No.
Because bad faith actors use association to disparage their opponents, you know the silly line, Hitler was a vegetarian therefore all vegetarians are like Hitler, a fascist. Elements of the left have always seen association as a very useful political tool, silly or not. The left reckons Trump is a fascist and he's about to bring in legislation to trash trans right! So anyone who agrees with that legislation is a fascist, that's how it is.
End of story.
Or there's how I see it, he's going to bring in legislation to safeguard children, particularly gay kids, he's going to restore sex based rather than gender based rights, and he's going to ban puberty blockers, so I agree with Trump, so I must be just like Trump, right? A fascist, motivated by hate, that's how it goes....That's how you delegitimise a cause, so if I'm a fascist...
They must be too...
Except they're not.
I'm not asking you to believe what I believe, I'm not even asking you to believe that I'm not driven by extreme right wing dogma, or religious zeal or any one of a dozen other hateful motives, the only thing I want, and the woman above want, is for the left to stop denying the possibility that there is any merit whatsoever to any of their concerns, because as far as the left is concerned there's no debate and we're all haters.
And in the culture wars non- debate, no platforming, cancelling and so on is the exclusive preserve of the left.
Good grief. That's a lot of effort for someone who thinks the other side is fighting the war.
bluethrunthru
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Their 2024 intake is just as full of bellends as the 2019 was
The perfect fumble
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Where do you reckon they're going? A year from now, two? We've two parties occupying the same spot with no policies, at least none grounded in reality.
Labour's poll numbers are terrible, but with Reform splitting the right wing vote I can't see the Tories coming back any time soon.
bluethrunthru
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with towering intellectuals like her? We have to understand the Liberal Party formed Govts and was important in the past - is there any reason why those roles cannot be reversed and for the Tories to make themselves a fringe Party for decades? The more they fail the less donations they attract so the fail more so they attract ..... you get the picture. Reform are a flash in the pan. They are basically Farage - if he moves on, becomes incapacitated or dies their base will be gone.
gordondaviesmoustache
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I don’t think Reform are, or will be, a flash in the pan. They fulfil a role that speaks loudly to roughly one sixth of the electorate, possibly slightly more. The views of most of those voters are pretty binary and uncompromising on certain issues, which further makes their longevity more likely, as those votes are unlikely to migrate elsewhere. I think they are here to stay, at least for the foreseeable.
bluethrunthru
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as I say they are Farage - that is all - no him they lose masses of their votes - you see any Reform voters interviewed and they only mention Farage - I bet none of them could name Zia Yousuf and probably only became aware of Lowe via Musk. Also their voters are aged - that affected the Tories last July - a chunk of their support between 2019 and 2024 will have passed away.
My guess would be no Farage most won't vote or will look around for even wilder R/W parties
TinFoilHat
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Robot Reeves will issuing a termination notice on Kemi.
The grin on Badenochs face when she attacked was sociopathic.
The grin on Badenochs face when she attacked was sociopathic.
I agree about Farage up to a point, but YouGov have just polled Reform voters asking about their opinion on Musk, and it may be more complex. While a lot more have an unfavourable opinion, over half still like him, despite him turning on Farage.
I suspect that their loyalty is to whatever nonsense they see on the internet, as much as Farage, and he'll struggle to control them.
Mr Kobayashi
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The Liberals formed governments prior to universal franchise. It was structural change not party incompetence etc that forced their decline.
There is no space for them to replace the Conservatives as a party of goverment.
They may be able to attract the Tory wets but that isn't a big enough demographic.
They wouldn't be able to coherently pivot rightwards and scoop up racist grannies and protofascists attracted to Reform etc and keep socially liberal middle class voters within their tent.
The Tories could be destroyed but the Libdems are not ever likely to command a majority needed to form a goverment. Not whilst Labour exists.