Middle East Conflict

I'm sure once the first phase of the Ceasefire is over and the American/Jewish hostages are freed ( Which Trump will brag about) Israel will revert back to the slaughtering, Spokesman will appear and blame Hamas or some kid thowing a rock. They are not stopping with this land grab and will want to totally annex the west bank and make Gaza a place of no return for the Palestinians.
 
The blue phantom said:
I'm sure once the first phase of the Ceasefire is over and the American/Jewish hostages are freed ( Which Trump will brag about) Israel will revert back to the slaughtering, Spokesman will appear and blame Hamas or some kid thowing a rock. They are not stopping with this land grab and will want to totally annex the west bank and make Gaza a place of no return for the Palestinians.
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Some Yank defence spokesman just been on CNN saying they will go back into Gaza with Israel "to destroy Hamas". I think that's the answer to your question.
 
Vic said:
I'd have thought my previous answer meant, "It's too soon to say".
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I’ll remember that shit response next time you’re wanking Sir Keir off.

So to answer your question I didn’t expect non resistance, no. It was the scale and nature of what went on on 7/10 that was wholly misjudged and completely counterproductive. The fact you cannot see this means you are incapable of objective thought on the matter.

Your argument appears to be predicated on the basis that because armed resistance is justified then that gives Hamas carte blanche to commit any atrocity, which is completely absurd. And so rather than acknowledge that it was tactically and strategically catastrophic for the Palestinian cause you’d rather wait 100 years to see how it works out.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
I’ll remember that shit response next time you’re wanking Sir Keir off.

So to answer your question I didn’t expect non resistance, no. It was the scale and nature of what went on on 7/10 that was wholly misjudged and completely counterproductive. The fact you cannot see this means you are incapable of objective thought on the matter.

Your argument appears to be predicated on the basis that because armed resistance is justified then that gives Hamas carte blanche to commit any atrocity, which is completely absurd. And so rather than acknowledge that it was tactically and strategically catastrophic for the Palestinian cause you’d rather wait 100 years to see how it works out.
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Just out of curiosity do you see what Israel are doing as alike to what Russia are doing in Ukraine?
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
I’ll remember that shit response next time you’re wanking Sir Keir off.

So to answer your question I didn’t expect non resistance, no. It was the scale and nature of what went on on 7/10 that was wholly misjudged and completely counterproductive. The fact you cannot see this means you are incapable of objective thought on the matter.

Your argument appears to be predicated on the basis that because armed resistance is justified then that gives Hamas carte blanche to commit any atrocity, which is completely absurd. And so rather than acknowledge that it was tactically and strategically catastrophic for the Palestinian cause you’d rather wait 100 years to see how it works out.
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After that coarse response I'm not really sure I want to engage further, but you seem to have acknowledged the need for resistance, just not too much.

I repeat the specific question:

Imagine these are your alternatives:

Forego aspirations of an Arab Palestinian state, stay and live as individuals in the Jewish State; enjoy all the benefits of the Jewish State in the Land of Israel.
Or be helped to emigrate to one of the many countries where Arabs realize their national ambitions, or to any other destination in the world.

What would be your choice from those alternatives? Or might you think is there a violent alternative?
 
The blue phantom said:
Two countries stealing land and slaughtering folk, The Two governments are exactly the same. Evil to the core.
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I think the Israel situation is far more nuanced than the Ukraine one.

I think blame lies on both side in the former (although not equally) whereas with the latter it rests exclusively with Russia to all intents and purposes.
 
Vic said:
After that coarse response I'm not really sure I want to engage further, but you seem to have acknowledged the need for resistance, just not too much.

I repeat the specific question:

Imagine these are your alternatives:

Forego aspirations of an Arab Palestinian state, stay and live as individuals in the Jewish State; enjoy all the benefits of the Jewish State in the Land of Israel.
Or be helped to emigrate to one of the many countries where Arabs realize their national ambitions, or to any other destination in the world.

What would be your choice from those alternatives? Or might you think is there a violent alternative?
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Given those two alternatives, and no other option I think the answer depends on the individual, but personally I’d rather live as an Arab in Israel than in Saudi Arabia.

In terms of your first paragraph, I guess that does sum my position up actually. Do you think, like me, 7/10 was ‘too much’ or do you think it was proportionate?
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Given those two alternatives, and no other option I think the answer depends on the individual, but personally I’d rather live as an Arab in Israel than in Saudi Arabia.

In terms of your first paragraph, I guess that does sum my position up actually. Do you think, like me, 7/10 was ‘too much’ or do you think it was proportionate?
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To the latter, proportionate to what? To any immediate threat? Or to the number of Palestinians killed by Israelis in the previous 100 years?

Or proportionate to just having those two alternatives of submitting to living in an apartheid Jewish state, or leaving?
 
Vic said:
To the latter, proportionate to what? To any immediate threat? Or to the number of Palestinians killed by Israelis in the previous 100 years?

Or proportionate to just having those two alternatives of submitting to living in an apartheid Jewish state, or leaving?
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Your inability to answer the question speaks volumes. You are actually one of the most dishonest posters on the board.

Get back to wanking Sir Keir off.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Given those two alternatives, and no other option I think the answer depends on the individual, but personally I’d rather live as an Arab in Israel than in Saudi Arabia.

In terms of your first paragraph, I guess that does sum my position up actually. Do you think, like me, 7/10 was ‘too much’ or do you think it was proportionate?
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Proportionate to what? Why would Hamas be proportionate against an enemy whose entire military doctrine is 10,100, 1000 of yours for one of ours?

An enemy that has been at war with Palestinians for it's whole existence and before and one that doesn't discriminate between military and civilians and deliberately targets disabled people.

Hamas isn't a professional army, on that day it was a ragtag band of militias crossing over to martyrdom.

To cross over to certain deaths they'd have to be radicalised fanatics.

Not sure how you think sergeants could have enforced a proportionate response when the majority of fighters knew they were not going back to Gaza.
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
That will never happen. The state of Israel is a state founded on Jewish supremacy.

Without immigration of settlers under the right of return and the birthrate being inflated up by the ultra orthodox community, the Jewish population would have already become a minority.

If they took in the Palestinian populations of Gaza and the West Bank and gave them equal rights then the Jewish state is no longer the Jewish state.
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That's the whole fucking point of the foundation of the state of Israel.

So that Jews are a majority in a state that's the only one where they're safe from antisemitism under a government that will supposedly protect them. Why do you think people emigrated there en masse from countries where they weren't welcome? Thats why October 7 was so traumatic for them. Suddenly they weren't safe.
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
Proportionate to what? Why would Hamas be proportionate against an enemy whose entire military doctrine is 10,100, 1000 of yours for one of ours?

An enemy that has been at war with Palestinians for it's whole existence and before and one that doesn't discriminate between military and civilians and deliberately targets disabled people.

Hamas isn't a professional army, on that day it was a ragtag band of militias crossing over to martyrdom.

To cross over to certain deaths they'd have to be radicalised fanatics.

Not sure how you think sergeants could have enforced a proportionate response when the majority of fighters knew they were not going back to Gaza.
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‘its’

Proportionate to the manifest outcome.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
That's the whole fucking point of the foundation of the state of Israel.

So that Jews are a majority in a state that's the only one where they're safe from antisemitism under a government that will supposedly protect them. Why do you think people emigrated there en masse from countries where they weren't welcome? Thats why October 7 was so traumatic for them. Suddenly they weren't safe.
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They were never safe. It was an illusion.

The paradox of Israel is that it's entire existence is dependent on being an American outpost and being overtly hostile to all their neighbours. The aggression they visit upon the Palestinians will always inspire the same hatred and disgust that they show towards Arabs. And it's deserved.

The fact that Jews are a majority isn't an issue. It's the commitment to them being a majority forever that's the problem. Excluding the ultra orthodox nutters they don't have enough children to maintain this reality, and their policies create an environment where Palestinians have lots of children.

Zionist Greater Israel isn't the solution to antisemitism. It's now a catalyst of growing antisemitism.

If it's the only state safe from antisemitism why do more Jews live in America than Israel?

And as the Ethiopian Jewish women found out after being given birth control without their consent or knowledge, not all Jews are created equal.

You see the world through your own experience. Jewishness means more.

I don't see any value difference between Jew, Gypsy, Yoruba, Igbo, Han Chinese, English, Scottish etc.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Your inability to answer the question speaks volumes. You are actually one of the most dishonest posters on the board.

Get back to wanking Sir Keir off.
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What do you want?

A statement that October 7th was wrong? Or merely that it was "disproportionate"?

I remind you what you said. "It was the scale and nature of what went on on 7/10 that was wholly misjudged and completely counterproductive." Whereas i would say it was wrong, regardless of the result (either in terms of casualties or outcome). The way you expressed it seems to imply that there is some measure of atrocity that would be "proportionate". I'm sorry I played to that by asking "proportionate to what?".

You also told me, "Your argument appears to be predicated on the basis that because armed resistance is justified then that gives Hamas carte blanche to commit any atrocity, which is completely absurd."

It would be absurd if that was my argument, rather than your unwarranted extrapolation.

Now my question was, if not dishonest, intended to explore why - whatever the casualties or outcome - October 7th happened. Hamas was promoted by Netanyahu because they opposed a two-state solution, and I wonder whether, faced with the alternatives of submit or leave, how should Hamas respond? The question was less than candid because it was the choice offered by Smotrich in his "decisive plan".

m.jpost.com

What is Smotrich's frightening, suicidal plan for Israel's future? | The Jerusalem Post

The signs are a clear warning to those who would stand in the way of annexation or attempt to enforce the law in opposition to the messianic, settler vision.
m.jpost.com m.jpost.com

Feel free to consider what would be a proportionate response to seeing the prospect of a Palestinian state being actively destroyed. If you can avoid masturbation as an accompaniment I'm sure we'd all be grateful.
 
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gordondaviesmoustache said:
It doesn’t undermine my point at all, which is simply that 7/10 has made the fate of the Palestinian people worse.

Are you suggesting it hasn’t?
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No, I'm not disputing that. How could I? I'm suggesting 7/10 was almost inevitable given how the Palestinians have been treated in the 20th Century and beyond. The only people who have my sympathies are the innocents on both sides who are being led by evil.

In a perfect world, Netanyahu and any offshoots of Hamas and Hezbollah will soon be off to hell and some semblance of peace can be finally reached in the region.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
‘its’

Proportionate to the manifest outcome.
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The outcome was changing the historical narrative, capturing the world's attention and sewing division within Israel.

I don't believe Hamas deluded themselves they would achieve a military victory or the whole aim was to bargain for a broadly equal number of prisoners to fighters lost in the attack.

I don't think their expected time frame for success was 2.5 years either.

Israel was in the days after the attack a victim. Now it isn't. It's the oppressor.

Most of the world now views them as the racist settler state they always were.
 
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