Russian invasion of Ukraine

[BobKowalski]

Biden and his fake red lines have a lot of answer for the wanker.

Yes, but those lines were for the benefit of the US, not Ukraine or Europe. Having Russian forces bleeding out in Ukraine and keeping the possibility of nuclear war low was a good strategic option for the US, especially at a minimal cost to themselves.

The US always put their interests first irrespective of who is President. For example Haig and his shuttle diplomacy to avert the Falklands conflict - something the UK was not best pleased with and done to protect US Latin American interests. Eventually the US took a side and their Cold War interests took precedent.

For Europe and the UK it’s also a balancing act and as long as siding with the US meant more good than bad we go along with it. Shift that balance then all bets are off.

 

[mosssideblue]

My worry, and I'm glad to be shot to pieces on this is;
Russia continue to refuse Nato or European peace keepers.
Trump steps in as says the only way forward is American troops.
Zelensky is forced to accept this.
Once in place America demand elections and the FSR activate their sleepers. With American help the Russians rig the election and a putin puppet is installed.
Within a year he agrees for the sake of peace, Ukraine gives up all the occupied land.
America withdraw and within another 12 months the puppet holds another (rigged) election with the voters having a choice. Become part of Russia or remain free.
To the total suprise of nobody 97% state they want to he part of Russia.
Russia then supplies cheap precious metals to America.
Please someone tell me I'm wrong.

I think Trump has burn't all bridges with Ukraine and Zelensky would see straight through Trumps proposals and dismiss them.

 

[mosssideblue]

Is it possible America could supply Russia with funds and arms, are we actually heading towards this stage?

I think if that were the case, Trump would be taken out from within

 

[fulabeer]

Although i'm seething about Trump, i don't yet fully believe the average American supports any of his madness since taking office.
Yes things did need a shake up, but Trump was never the answer.
I'm just hoping Americans takes back control of their country, and get somebody who has at least one bit of humanity in them.

 

[BobKowalski]

Trump could have easily achieved the same without siding with Putin. I would suggest it is Trump and not the US but why does EU "need to" interact with him?

Trump is the US. Trump determines foreign policy. We can’t ignore the US and we interact with all countries, some more friendly than others, but we need to be clear that our interests are no longer automatically aligned with those of the US.

Our relationship will be transactional rather than based on shared or perceived shared values.

 

[Blue Maverick]

Although i'm seithing about Trump, i don't yet fully believe the average American supports any of his madness since taking office.
Yes things did need a shake up, but Trump was never the answer.
I'm just hoping Americans takes back control of their country, and get somebody who has at least one bit of humanity in them.

And how do you think that would happen? Maybe the 25th amendment? The ones behind the scenes are egging him on so they can turn round and says he’s a nut job get rid and put Vance in?

 

[Eebo]

Not that surprising if you

It's hard to believe that in just a few months, America has gone from a Russian hating nation to their best friends.
That both Russia and the US have presidents who control the media and openly lie to their populations.
Quote figures and facts that even when fact checked makes no difference to their people.

America has fucked up here. It will take generations of shame and repaired relations when the mafia is eventually dislodged.
I want to know where the "decent American" push back starts.
Surely they are not just going to sit back and let all Trumps madness just carry on?

Europe couldn't make big security decisions while the US were allies.
Those days are firmly gone.
So now decision makers can get on and make those decisions. They have gone from election losing ones, to vote winning ones.

Not that surprising when you think that Trump and his cohort of thugs and gangsters have always been owned by Putin and have followed exactly the same playbook.

The same methods have been used by Trump as by Putler to achieve a dictatorship of thugs.

First creating a "post-truth" World where voters become immune to lies, use bots on social media, purge your own party and install loyalists in every position of power by creating a climate of fear, then subjugating the oligarchs (big tech companies in US) and making them understand that they can only stay where they are if you allow them to be, and finally taking control of the country and it's resources for your own end and those of your backer Putin.

Threatening to invade a neighbouring democratic country (to normalise what Putin is doing in Ukraine), trying to destroy NATO and 'negotiating' with Russia by giving Putin everything he wants in Ukraine.

Very scary times when the most powerful country in the World and the most vile country are both under the control of a man who seems to be modelling himself on Hitler. I don't see how we get back from this situation.

 

[remember arthur mann]

How would you feel if Trump told the UK to leave NATO. Give up our nukes and army. Become a American state.
Or they will invade.

What would you do?

From what I understand, yes I could be wrong. Ukraine are not in NATO or never have been. Isn't the whole conflict about them joining, which Moscow feel would undermine Russian security. At the beginning it was negotiable, but I feel Zelenskyy was to say, a little intransigent.

 

[mosssideblue]

From what I understand, yes I could be wrong. Ukraine are not in NATO or never have been. Isn't the whole conflict about them joining, which Moscow feel would undermine Russian security. At the beginning it was negotiable, but I feel Zelenskyy was to say, a little intransigent.

I think it is somewhat naive to believe Putin invaded Ukraine because of NATO aspirations

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Isn't the whole conflict about them joining, which Moscow feel would undermine Russian security.

No, it isn't.

It's about Russia not recognising Ukraine as a sovereign country.

You seem to believe anything Russia says. I'd advise the opposite course: believe nothing Russia says unless proven by other sources.

 

[roubaixtuesday]

In the least surprising news ever, Boris Johnson is a **** and will happily sell out Ukraine to maintain his right wing American funding.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

No, it isn't.

It's about Russia not recognising Ukraine as a sovereign country.

You seem to believe anything Russia says. I'd advise the opposite course: believe nothing Russia says unless proven by other sources.

I certainly think that a very large driver was "if Ukraine is in NATO, we can't attack them, so we'll have to do it now".
It stems from wanting to take back control of the country though.

 

[bluenova]

In the least surprising news ever, Boris Johnson is a **** and will happily sell out Ukraine to maintain his right wing American funding.


View attachment 147298

Liar says lying is fine if you get what you want.

 

[Kirkstall Blue]

Sadly not the best audio

Deliberate by Sky so we don’t know what the president said but I’ll try and find a better translation

 

[roubaixtuesday]

Lair says lying is fine if you get what you want.

Yeah, but mainly just desperate, utterly pathetic and craven defence of the indefensible.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

If only that bullet hit the bastard in the temple.

 

[Tb1981]

In the least surprising news ever, Boris Johnson is a **** and will happily sell out Ukraine to maintain his right wing American funding.


View attachment 147298

I actually think he is right here about a few points
Trump will get peace, but his haters will moan about him selling Ukraine out whatever is agreed.
There is no way in the world Russia retreat and Ukraine goes back to its 2014 borders. Some people would rather Ukraine carried on fighting till Russia wins
Also it makes sense for America and Russia to meet
If you throw in Ukraine, uk, France and Germany etc it’s a one sided negotiation and Russia won’t do it
It has to be seen as a success for both superpowers
Both will declare victory but really Ukraine will be worse off than at the start of the war.
Russia also loses because everyone knows they are all talk now and no where as powerful as they like to project.

 

[grunge]

From what I understand, yes I could be wrong. Ukraine are not in NATO or never have been. Isn't the whole conflict about them joining, which Moscow feel would undermine Russian security. At the beginning it was negotiable, but I feel Zelenskyy was to say, a little intransigent.

No, nothing at all to do with NATO past the odd excuse here and there, usually banded about by MAGA Americans. Russia's original reason given for the invasion was to "remove the Nazi's from Ukraine"

Pre 2014 when Russia invaded and took Crimea there was pretty much zero public desire in Ukraine to join NATO. Obviously after that date the desire to join NATO increased seeing as Russia had invaded them. So any desire to Join NATO was actually a direct reaction to Russian Aggression in the 1st place.

 

[mosssideblue]

If only that bullet hit the bastard in the temple.

If he carries on as is, he will no doubt face others incoming

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

From what I understand, yes I could be wrong. Ukraine are not in NATO or never have been. Isn't the whole conflict about them joining, which Moscow feel would undermine Russian security. At the beginning it was negotiable, but I feel Zelenskyy was to say, a little intransigent.

Russia is a fascist expansionist nation. It'll invade its neighbors unless Moscow can prop up a puppet governor loyal to Russia. The 2008 invasion of Georgia and the 2014 annexation of Ukrainian Crimea serve as examples.

So yeah - it's Ukraine's fault for refusing to exist as a puppet nation under Russia's control and for daring to aspire to EU membership, and, for protection, to NATO membership.

This shit is so out of hand that nations who had refused NATO membership for decades are now part of NATO - seeking protection from the tyrant. And - oh-by-the-way - Finland borders Russia. I guess you'd be OK with Russia invading Finland?