The Labour Government

BobKowalski said:
You shouldn’t be baffled. Reform is on the extreme end of the political spectrum and your politics/attitude is also on the extreme end. You despise centrist politics and their ‘lackey’ supporters. Purity of thought and deed, no cake is better than half a cake and compromise is a dirty word etc., which are features of the far left and far right so to others there is little distinction between the two.

Additionally, your default mode is to snipe and mock which discourages debate. Scoring points or highlighting some perceived hypocrisy is more important than the issue at hand. Smug pomposity is my overriding impression based on your posts.
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Erm

Being bothered about the environment is extreme?
Being bothered about the less we'll off is extreme?
Pointing out hypocrisy is extreme?
Wanting a little bit more than not very shit is extreme?

Do you know what extreme actually is in your centrist bubble?

There isn't much debate on here just a lot of side taking, like extreme I'm not sure you know what debate is. Its not perceived hypocrisy as I state why I think hypocrisy is being shown. Some of you just don't like being called out on it. You basically just like your own way.

Anyhow if a poster keeps popping into threads saying it's pointless debating on here over and over again that would be adding to the pointless act of posting no? More hypocrisy yes?

No you could debate why that isn't the case but you know it is, but you don't want debate so don't even try that one.

Discouraging debate? What is telling everyone its pointless? That would be discouraging posting therefore debate no? Where's your post condemning that? There isn't one. That would be your hypocrisy again.

You guys don't like being called out on your short comings but are happy to tell others theirs.

Oh there's your hypocrisy again.

I couldn't care less what you think of me but if it irks you and people like Elvis maybe stop being hypocrites and actually debate instead.

Ttfn.
 
hilts said:
Erm

Being bothered about the environment is extreme?
Being bothered about the less we'll off is extreme?
Pointing out hypocrisy is extreme?
Wanting a little bit more than not very shit is extreme?

Do you know what extreme actually is in your centrist bubble?

There isn't much debate on here just a lot of side taking, like extreme I'm not sure you know what debate is. Its not perceived hypocrisy as I state why I think hypocrisy is being shown. Some of you just don't like being called out on it. You basically just like your own way.

Anyhow if a poster keeps popping into threads saying it's pointless debating on here over and over again that would be adding to the pointless act of posting no? More hypocrisy yes?

No you could debate why that isn't the case but you know it is, but you don't want debate so don't even try that one.

Discouraging debate? What is telling everyone its pointless? That would be discouraging posting therefore debate no? Where's your post condemning that? There isn't one. That would be your hypocrisy again.

You guys don't like being called out on your short comings but are happy to tell others theirs.

Oh there's your hypocrisy again.

I couldn't care less what you think of me but if it irks you and people like Elvis maybe stop being hypocrites and actually debate instead.

Ttfn.
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You are conflating policies with attitudes. Most people on here will care about the environment or the less well off or (insert policy of choice). It is attitudes we are discussing and how smug certainty and constant sniping shuts down debate.

Like @BigJoe#1 you exhibit an inflexible certainty and mock or insult those who don’t share the same views or differ on how to achieve desirable outcomes. This in turn leads to insults being returned or people walking away from the debate.

I am suggesting a change in tone and style by yourself may elicit a more interesting level of discussion.
 
bluenova said:
To be fair, Andrew Fisher, worked inside Corbyn's Labour - he's probably assuming that McSweeney is higher up in the hierarchy.
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To be fair Andrew Fisher hasn't headed a dubiously funded faction of the Labour Party and been so far up the hierarchy that a couple of Times hacks wrote a book about it.

Not like you to downplay the influence of these malevolent actors is it? I mean last year you claimed that Starmer was keeping 'Petie' at arms length despite him "trying to worm his way back in".

How's that going?
 
BobKowalski said:
You are conflating policies with attitudes. Most people on here will care about the environment or the less well off or (insert policy of choice). It is attitudes we are discussing and how smug certainty and constant sniping shuts down debate.

Like @BigJoe#1 you exhibit an inflexible certainty and mock or insult those who don’t share the same views or differ on how to achieve desirable outcomes. This in turn leads to insults being returned or people walking away from the debate.

I am suggesting a change in tone and style by yourself may elicit a more interesting level of discussion.
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Would never tone police you Bob but I would suggest an occasional look in the mirror ;-)
 
BobKowalski said:
You are conflating policies with attitudes. Most people on here will care about the environment or the less well off or (insert policy of choice). It is attitudes we are discussing and how smug certainty and constant sniping shuts down debate.

Like @BigJoe#1 you exhibit an inflexible certainty and mock or insult those who don’t share the same views or differ on how to achieve desirable outcomes. This in turn leads to insults being returned or people walking away from the debate.

I am suggesting a change in tone and style by yourself may elicit a more interesting level of discussion.
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Mocking comes from everywhere, you only seem concerned about the mocking from those who disagree with you or question the honesty of the debate. There is no group more certain or smug in their views than centrist remainers believe me.

I note you ignore the parts of my post that specify hypocrisy, how can anyone have an honest debate when uncomfortable truths are ignored. It's very easy to attack the posting style of a poster you generally disagree with but ignore similar or even give likes to those that you tend to agree with.
I have stated several times I'm happy for people to put me on ignore, I don't seek validation from strangers on a football forum. I don't attempt to change people's opinions but I do pull them up on their dishonesty.
It seems sarcasm or calling posters out is bad form in your book, but dishonesty or hypocrisy somehow deserves civility to prevent hurt feelings. Like I said you are free to question my reasonings but posters seldom do, they can see the truth in it and frankly they don't like being called out on it.
If you want an honest debate let's start with the extreme views you believe I hold.
 
BobKowalski said:
You are conflating policies with attitudes. Most people on here will care about the environment or the less well off or (insert policy of choice). It is attitudes we are discussing and how smug certainty and constant sniping shuts down debate.

Like @BigJoe#1 you exhibit an inflexible certainty and mock or insult those who don’t share the same views or differ on how to achieve desirable outcomes. This in turn leads to insults being returned or people walking away from the debate.

I am suggesting a change in tone and style by yourself may elicit a more interesting level of discussion.
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I have firm views, for which I will not apologise, however I think you will find it's the likes of Bluehammer and HampshireBlue amongst others that come on here calling people cunts and right wing facists and yes, on occasions, though not always (quit rarely in fact) I will respond. I am confident I have not called someone a thick lowlife ****.

I have said from day 1 that I cannot (and will not) vote for the two main parties as they have fucked this country up good and proper over the last 40/50 years and I will always vote as I see best, which qualifies me as being a right wing racist. It really doesn't qualify me, but I don't care what others may say, I will use my vote as is my right (and I believe duty) as I see fit

What is your view of the left wingers on here that use such language? Is it acceptable if it comes from them, those that use it in nearly every post they make? Or, is it only people who have a different view to you and them that deserve your criticism?
 
hilts said:
Lots of good stuff in there, the only negative is you think, for reasons that baffle me, I'm having a go at 'the left'. You haven't read or comprehended my post. I'm saying they are false socialists. I don't vote Tory or Reform.
My party is very much left of this Labour lot and their lackey supporters on here.
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I read a few of your posts before I replied, so apologies if I misinterpreted them.

I suppose I'm just as pissed off as you are with ordinary people voting against their best interests.
 
hilts said:
Mocking comes from everywhere, you only seem concerned about the mocking from those who disagree with you or question the honesty of the debate. There is no group more certain or smug in their views than centrist remainers believe me.

I note you ignore the parts of my post that specify hypocrisy, how can anyone have an honest debate when uncomfortable truths are ignored. It's very easy to attack the posting style of a poster you generally disagree with but ignore similar or even give likes to those that you tend to agree with.
I have stated several times I'm happy for people to put me on ignore, I don't seek validation from strangers on a football forum. I don't attempt to change people's opinions but I do pull them up on their dishonesty.
It seems sarcasm or calling posters out is bad form in your book, but dishonesty or hypocrisy somehow deserves civility to prevent hurt feelings. Like I said you are free to question my reasonings but posters seldom do, they can see the truth in it and frankly they don't like being called out on it.
If you want an honest debate let's start with the extreme views you believe I hold.
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I’m suggesting a bit less of the sniping and mocking would facilitate a better level of debate. I got pulled on it a while back and and concluded they had a point - not saying I stopped altogether, but I eased up.

So, extremism. Just an impression. The student union language jars a bit. Lackeys, uncomfortable truths, hypocrisy yada, yada. Throw in a ‘running dogs of capitalism’ and it’s a student activist bingo card. Immigration- yeah definitely get a Reform vibe there, ditto Europe - oh, and if Reform do well it’s all the fault and failure of ‘centrists’? ‘I voted for the grifter and racist because they drove me to it’ - yeah, well, how about people taking a bit of personal responsibility now and then? That would be nice.

Anyway, I digress. I made a suggestion. Do with it as you please.
 
BigJoe#1 said:
I have firm views, for which I will not apologise, however I think you will find it's the likes of Bluehammer and HampshireBlue amongst others that come on here calling people cunts and right wing facists and yes, on occasions, though not always (quit rarely in fact) I will respond. I am confident I have not called someone a thick lowlife ****.

I have said from day 1 that I cannot (and will not) vote for the two main parties as they have fucked this country up good and proper over the last 40/50 years and I will always vote as I see best, which qualifies me as being a right wing racist. It really doesn't qualify me, but I don't care what others may say, I will use my vote as is my right (and I believe duty) as I see fit

What is your view of the left wingers on here that use such language? Is it acceptable if it comes from them, those that use it in nearly every post they make? Or, is it only people who have a different view to you and them that deserve your criticism?
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Well, good for you in refraining from calling someone a ****. I would suggest though when someone responds with facts to one of your many, many posts that you refrain from immediately calling them ‘dumb, dumbs’ or accuse them of posting ‘drivel’ or being ‘brainwashed lefties’ or similar insult.

But then, your location strap line is ‘none so blind etc’ as if only you can see the ‘uncomfortable truth’ thereby elevating politics to an article of faith and, alas, a fact free zone.

Do people who buy their politics free of facts and hard information buy other things on the same basis? Would you buy a property with only the sellers word that ‘it’s a great property, one of the best’ and dispense with an independent valuation and survey to verify that yes, indeed, it is a great property?

Just curious.
 
BigJoe#1 said:
I have firm views, for which I will not apologise, however I think you will find it's the likes of Bluehammer and HampshireBlue amongst others that come on here calling people cunts and right wing facists and yes, on occasions, though not always (quit rarely in fact) I will respond. I am confident I have not called someone a thick lowlife ****.

I have said from day 1 that I cannot (and will not) vote for the two main parties as they have fucked this country up good and proper over the last 40/50 years and I will always vote as I see best, which qualifies me as being a right wing racist. It really doesn't qualify me, but I don't care what others may say, I will use my vote as is my right (and I believe duty) as I see fit

What is your view of the left wingers on here that use such language? Is it acceptable if it comes from them, those that use it in nearly every post they make? Or, is it only people who have a different view to you and them that deserve your criticism?
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Morning How are things in the land of Joe?

You said:

"I have firm views, for which I will not apologise, however I think you will find it's the likes of Bluehammer and HampshireBlue amongst others that come on here calling people cunts and right wing facists and yes, on occasions, though not always (quit rarely in fact) I will respond. I am confident I have not called someone a thick lowlife ****."

Having done a search of my content, on no occasion have I called anyone on here a c*nt. I have regarding your pal, Farage, on 2 occasions. I have also never used the word "facists" according to my history. I look forward to your apology for being mistaken, wrong or lying.
 
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BobKowalski said:
I’m suggesting a bit less of the sniping and mocking would facilitate a better level of debate. I got pulled on it a while back and and concluded they had a point - not saying I stopped altogether, but I eased up.

So, extremism. Just an impression. The student union language jars a bit. Lackeys, uncomfortable truths, hypocrisy yada, yada. Throw in a ‘running dogs of capitalism’ and it’s a student activist bingo card. Immigration- yeah definitely get a Reform vibe there, ditto Europe - oh, and if Reform do well it’s all the fault and failure of ‘centrists’? ‘I voted for the grifter and racist because they drove me to it’ - yeah, well, how about people taking a bit of personal responsibility now and then? That would be nice.

Anyway, I digress. I made a suggestion. Do with it as you please.
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Lackey is not an extremist word
Uncomfortable truth, not sure how that is anything but a descriptive term
Hypocrisy? Just a popular word used all the time
Running of dogs of capitalism ? Never used it.
I was never at uni or in the union and I certainly don't use phrases that students do, that is just incorrect.

I can't quite get my head around your problem with these basic phrases tbh, I think you're struggling when it's coming down to the nuts and bolts of your problem with me. None of the above is extremism in words or deed to anybody.

Now to the actual question I asked, the bit we are supposed to be debating as you want more reasoned debate. Why my views are extreme.

Firstly I would say that just coming out with subjects isn't really debating but here goes

Immigration, reform vibe, voting for the grifter

I have said plenty I'm against population increase that is my own personal view for environmental reasons. I have stated I don't vote for Reform and never will. Now immigration is a concern to a lot of people for different reasons, you may not agree although I note you agreed with the govts position on reducing it..
So you think being concerned about immigration is extremism and voting for Reform is bur I don't even vote for them.

Ditto Europe - 52% of people voted for it how can that be an extremist view? But again I did it for environmental and democratic reasons. Wanting a fairer democracy is extreme?

Now it seems you have your views which is fine but if someone differs you think that's extremism? Really?

Finally sniping and mocking because I feel that what you don't really like is someone who uses sarcasm or ridicule when they disagree with you.

Posters in your group politically can call other people racist, stupid fascist and extremist plus much more and you are happy to go along with that but sarcasm and ridicule is a no no from those who disagree with your views.

I get some peoples frustration when people don't listen or respond to what is posted so name calling follows. But I asked you a simple question on my views that you claimed were extreme.

You replied with things that aren't extreme, threw a vibe my way and said I vote for someone who I have stated I don't, I've not been shy on where my vote goes.

Is this debating to you?

Now if sarcasm and different views to you lead you believe that is extremism and nasty posting then why is calling people stupid, racist and fascist okay from people you agree with?

I don't tend to have a pop at people for being blunt, sarcastic or even insulting. That's the way of the politics forum, any of us can walk away. But let's not pretend there isn't a huge amount of bias in what you deem acceptable or not.

Now I have stated extensively where I'm coming from, I have explained my views, this is debating. That is not what you did, you simply stated things that were untrue and tried to pass off simple words as something that they aren't. Basically you can't back up your views with any substance.

Is that debating to you? Is it hopeful deflection because you have no substance to the accusation of extremism or is it insulting my intelligence? Lucky I've turned off my sarcasm button.

Well almost:-)
 
BobKowalski said:
Well, good for you in refraining from calling someone a ****. I would suggest though when someone responds with facts to one of your many, many posts that you refrain from immediately calling them ‘dumb, dumbs’ or accuse them of posting ‘drivel’ or being ‘brainwashed lefties’ or similar insult.

But then, your location strap line is ‘none so blind etc’ as if only you can see the ‘uncomfortable truth’ thereby elevating politics to an article of faith and, alas, a fact free zone.

Do people who buy their politics free of facts and hard information buy other things on the same basis? Would you buy a property with only the sellers word that ‘it’s a great property, one of the best’ and dispense with an independent valuation and survey to verify that yes, indeed, it is a great property?

Just curious.
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Politics is, as I'm sure you'll agree, is a very subjective issue and a subject that can be very emotive and everyone will have their own thresholds for reactions. Having been constantly pilloried in nearly every post by some posters on here my threshold has on occasions been breached and I have reacted.

As you have pointed out in many posts people (on both sides) have entrenched views. I think I can say that most of the time I have reacted to people continually saying how I voted and why, despite informing them of the true position, they choose to ignore what I have said and repeat the mis-truth, you can only tolerate this for so long before you have to question their ability to comprehend what prople are posting. Whether or not they agree or disagree with those views is irrelevant and does not necessitate the attacks that are launched - IMO.

We all have our own beliefs and versions and interpretation of facts and information and we should all listen to what others say (admittedly there are occasions when I haven't practiced this) but there is never any reason in civilised debate to call your adversary a "facist" or a "****" - IMO, just becaused they happen to disagree with most of what you are saying.

You never commented on my question around the insults that come from the Labour supporters on here. Are their comments fair game? If so then any response has be acceptable does it not?
 
Far be it from me to use the word pointless but the thread seems to be mostly about style - essays justifying or attacking the occasional lapse of decorum - but could those with time on their hands start a separate thread if that's how they want to spend the weekend? I'm off out.
 
BigJoe#1 said:
Politics is, as I'm sure you'll agree, is a very subjective issue and a subject that can be very emotive and everyone will have their own thresholds for reactions. Having been constantly pilloried in nearly every post by some posters on here my threshold has on occasions been breached and I have reacted.

As you have pointed out in many posts people (on both sides) have entrenched views. I think I can say that most of the time I have reacted to people continually saying how I voted and why, despite informing them of the true position, they choose to ignore what I have said and repeat the mis-truth, you can only tolerate this for so long before you have to question their ability to comprehend what prople are posting. Whether or not they agree or disagree with those views is irrelevant and does not necessitate the attacks that are launched - IMO.

We all have our own beliefs and versions and interpretation of facts and information and we should all listen to what others say (admittedly there are occasions when I haven't practiced this) but there is never any reason in civilised debate to call your adversary a "facist" or a "****" - IMO, just becaused they happen to disagree with most of what you are saying.

You never commented on my question around the insults that come from the Labour supporters on here. Are their comments fair game? If so then any response has be acceptable does it not?
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Please read my post above and respond.
Vic said:
Far be it from me to use the word pointless but the thread seems to be mostly about style - essays justifying or attacking the occasional lapse of decorum - but could those with time on their hands start a separate thread if that's how they want to spend the weekend? I'm off out.
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I wish I could go out!!
 
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