The Labour Government

[threespires]

And that it is important that our ethnicity is celebrated and protected. Thousands of years of culture, history and tradition is not something trivial to be tossed away and lost forever.

And yet if I were to fly a Union Jack outside my house, I'd likely be branded as a racist white supremacist.

Parts of the UK now more closely resemble Pakistan. I am not racist. I have nothing against Pakistani people. I like Pakistani people. But I do not want to live in Pakistan. I don't want our high streets to look like Pakistan.

Good faith questions.

When you say I don't want our high streets to look like Pakistan what do you actually mean?
What is it you are specifically anxious about?

I lived for a while in Sparkhill in the late 80's around about when the white population had become a minority. The shops were reflective of the local community and the fact that more of the pakistani and indian community were more into running shops, food outlets and small businesses. The percentage of pakistani origin people has gone up quite a bit since then but the place looks broadly the same to me, maybe a higher density of shops, new swimming pool next to the old library which is still there and a fairly new Gurdwara on the other side of the library. Definitely more mosques than churches but hardly surprising given the local population and the fact hardly anyone goes to church these days.

It really didn't and doesn't look like a highstreet in Pakistan or India, which for a million reasons look really quite different to ours. It looks like what it is - a british highstreet, lots of redbrick victorian and edwardian buildings, it just so happens the shops in them are selling stuff that serves the predominantly ethnic community. It looks a bit run down in parts because the overall level of investment in the area hasn't been that high but not really any different from many other urban areas. So my point is the area has looked roughly like it does now for quite a long time and the world hasn't fallen apart. I do absolutely acknowledge there are parts of the country where there are very high concentrations of people of pakistani origin mostly in areas of the three big cities of England and then in maybe 5 - 10 towns around the country. They might change the flavour of a specific area in the way I've described but not of the country in any material way.

You talk about thousands of years of culture, history and tradition being tossed away but who's doing that? For example, Christian churches have disappeared because the indigenous population has decided it doesn't believe in God anymore, some of the older churches I know are only viable because of immigrants breathing new life into them. We have a poor record of preserving our heritage but that's got nothing to do with asian shopkeepers. We stuck our industry very close to or inside our cities (which for instance the italians typically didn't), that and a much less discriminating approach by the Luftwaffe did quite a good job of getting rid of chunks of our history in WWII and then we've just never prioritised it since, preferring to indulge in some pretty dubious postwar urban planning. We binned off our small retail culture in favour of huge supermarket chains and online shopping, ironically the only people keeping what was our traditional shop culture going are immigrants many of whom still understand the value of food that tastes of something.

So I'm struggling to understand what aspects of our culture being tossed away (which I have some sympathy with) has anything to do with the Pakistani community? Which brings me back to my second question which I would genuinely in good faith like to understand.

 

[metalblue]

In what way is it unclear? The UK is in Europe. Our neighbours are European. The Europeans have a free trade area including free movement involving thirty countries including non-EU countries. It makes sense for us to be part of that.

I mean, we did push for the creation of, and are largely responsible for, the Single Market because we figured it would be a good thing - and it was. But then we went insane, and judging by some of the posts in this thread we still are :)

Anyway, this is all a bit off topic for this thread and I doubt if I can make it any bleeding clearer. The fact people seem to be unaware that the United Kingdom is a unitary political construct is a bit bizarre. ‘We must have borders otherwise there will be chaos and it will never work!’. I mean, we fucking live in a ‘no internal border political construct’ for fuck’s sake.

So this isn’t really true at all (bar the pro Europe bit, and I dare say healthcare and welfare)

I’m pro free trade, pro Europe, pro immigration, no borders, capitalist. I also believe in a strong welfare state and health service and I am very liberal on social issues.

To be honest, I thought my views were pretty clear from my posts.

You just want to rejoin the EU.

 

[Chippy_boy]

You are spot on here about earth healing itself, the only question is will humans be around to see it.

Well 100% for sure, we won't all be killed off by climate change. Even if 10,000 people have to live in a bunker in the arctic, humanity will survive climate change. Whether we survive other things thrown at us, is another matter. Although I can only think of AI or asteroid strike as being true existential threats.

 

[hilts]

There are currently 31 countries within the Schengen zone. That’s 450 million people who travel freely between countries without border controls. And your response? A Roma family moving in next door. I’m not sure what is more revealing. The whiff of racism or your rank stupidity.

For starters you actually live in a country with open borders and free movement. It’s called the United Kingdom. You may have heard of it. Four countries that have no restrictions on movement or border controls. Fun Roma fact. There are around 200,000 Roma people living in this unregulated, border less United Kingdom. Now don’t panic, I’m sure none will be keen on living next door to you. Stick a poster in your window advertising who you are. I’m sure they will stay clear and count themselves fortunate.

What else? Given the Schengen zone was expanded in January this year and will soon include Cyprus, European countries seem happy enough with the scrapping of internal border controls. I note your stupidity extends to being unable to distinguish between the internal and external borders of the Zone, the latter being controlled, and sometimes shamefully so.

Finally, I assume you will be leaving our border less and unregulated United Kingdom as the chances of a Scottish, Welsh or Irish family moving in next door to you must be alarmingly high.

Anyway, toodle pip for now. This has been fun.

When you say European countries are happy with it who do you actually mean?. The UK nor anywhere else has freedom of movement, it has less restrictions than some other countries but every country in the world has restrictions.

 

[Chippy_boy]

have the strikes happened ?

Will Labour totally ignore any talks and allow months and years of strikes (costing billions and billions to the economy) like the Tories did? let's see.

Let's hope so. Unless you want to get your wallet out? No, I didn't think so.

 

[hampshireblue]

When you say European countries are happy with it who do you actually mean?. The UK nor anywhere else has freedom of movement, it has less restrictions than some other countries but every country in the world has restrictions.

Please enlighten us on what stops any of us travelling to any other part of the UK i.e freedom of movement .

 

[BobKowalski]

When you say European countries are happy with it who do you actually mean?. The UK nor anywhere else has freedom of movement, it has less restrictions than some other countries but every country in the world has restrictions.

The UK has freedom of movement. There are no restrictions on you, as a UK citizen, living in England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

All EU citizens and their family members have the right to move and reside freely within the EU. But, you are correct in that EU countries do apply administrative procedures - often the same ones that apply to residents of the country you move to. For longer than three months you do have to say why you are there - effectively your status ie working, student etc. As an EU citizen you have full access to health care in the country you are residing in.

After five years you are entitled to permanent residence.

 

[BobKowalski]

So this isn’t really true at all (bar the pro Europe bit, and I dare say healthcare and welfare)



You just want to rejoin the EU.

We don’t have to join the EU. The Schengen Zone includes non-EU countries. Same with the Single Market and Customs Union. They are political constructs on our doorstep. Part of our Union is within the jurisdiction of the EU. Our external border with the EU has no border controls. I mean, hello? What do you reckon the direction of travel is?

If you want to talk about the rest of the world then fine. Philosophically I am for the removal of borders for trade and people. For the purposes of this thread it seemed practical to point out examples of countries with no internal borders between them, including the one we all fucking live in and the thirty or so countries we share a continent with.

Instead the response is bafflement, Union Jacks and Pakistan.

 

[Chippy_boy]

thats Reform Ltd's answer - they think as well as the people that came on boats in the long run anyone "not from here" should be sent back to their country of origin - they want nobody they don't like to be in the UK. And all us sensible people know the economic carnage that would follow.

What tosh. They merely say anyone arriving illegally should be deported. Now you might disagree with that and be delighted to welcom in swarms of under 30 male illegal immigrants, who are far more likely to commit crimes. Brilliant.

But don't twist things to suggest that Reform want to deport legal migrants. They don't.

 

[hilts]

Please enlighten us on what stops any of us travelling to any other part of the UK i.e freedom of movement .

Freedom of movement is being able to travel anywhere not just in the confines of lines drawn on a map. It's been a long long time since people could just fuck off to wherever they wanted.

 

[hilts]

The UK has freedom of movement. There are no restrictions on you, as a UK citizen, living in England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.

All EU citizens and their family members have the right to move and reside freely within the EU. But, you are correct in that EU countries do apply administrative procedures - often the same ones that apply to residents of the country you move to. For longer than three months you do have to say why you are there - effectively your status ie working, student etc. As an EU citizen you have full access to health care in the country you are residing in.

After five years you are entitled to permanent residence.

So I was right, appreciated :-)

 

[bluethrunthru]

What tosh. They merely say anyone arriving illegally should be deported. Now you might disagree with that and be delighted to welcom in swarms of under 30 male illegal immigrants, who are far more likely to commit crimes. Brilliant.

But don't twist things to suggest that Reform want to deport legal migrants. They don't.

Why Farage getting his dream of net zero migration would probably not be a good sign for the UK economy

Ed Conway says the country's last period of negative net migration was not seen as a particularly positive story at the time - and major changes to the figures are invariably not a product of direct government policy.

news.sky.com

 

[metalblue]

We don’t have to join the EU. The Schengen Zone includes non-EU countries. Same with the Single Market and Customs Union. They are political constructs on our doorstep. Part of our Union is within the jurisdiction of the EU. Our external border with the EU has no border controls. I mean, hello? What do you reckon the direction of travel is?

If you want to talk about the rest of the world then fine. Philosophically I am for the removal of borders for trade and people. For the purposes of this thread it seemed practical to point out examples of countries with no internal borders between them, including the one we all fucking live in and the thirty or so countries we share a continent with.

Instead the response is bafflement, Union Jacks and Pakistan.

I think I’ve finally understood you. You believe in no borders, you accept it won’t happen, so prefer joining Schengen Zone as you see having less travel friction with our nearest neighbours is better than nothing.

That sum it up?

The problem I see with freedom of movement is ensuring public services, schools etc can cope. Unfortunately with said services on their knees we need to invest in them before we could even think about it. Until then you’d have to reasonably put a cap on numbers which defeats the purpose…. But maybe that’s all part of the master plan to not invest in public services!!

 

[Damocles]

Please enlighten us on what stops any of us travelling to any other part of the UK i.e freedom of movement .

Have you seen the bloody trains?

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

I agree on the 1% tax increase. I think they could get round it politically by stating that it will go towards the "defence of the realm". There's no doubt since Trump got back in the requirement to spend more on defence has intensified and could just about be used as the reason for an increase.

Someone on median salary of £35k would pay an extra £225 per year, 50K would pay £375 extra and £100k would pay £875 extra.

Alternatively they could increase VAT by 2%. I would not want that on any purchases on say, under £100 to protect the very lowest paid- but it's only an extra £20 on a £1000 new TV. This strategy could also be used to get reduce or even get rid of VAT on gas/electricity bills, again to protect those on lowest income.

All of this could be "sold" as temporary changes till we are upto speed on defence spending.

Or they could tax the big companies that use the system to avoid paying their fair share of taxes? But that would involve some balls and ignoring significant pressure.

 

[BobKowalski]

I think I’ve finally understood you. You believe in no borders, you accept it won’t happen, so prefer joining Schengen Zone as you see having less travel friction with our nearest neighbours is better than nothing.

That sum it up?

The problem I see with freedom of movement is ensuring public services, schools etc can cope. Unfortunately with said services on their knees we need to invest in them before we could even think about it. Until then you’d have to reasonably put a cap on numbers which defeats the purpose…. But maybe that’s all part of the master plan to not invest in public services!!

No.

As for public services I would suggest we abolish freedom of movement and impose border controls for the home nations otherwise services will collapse under the strain of huge swathes of the British people moving around the country. Sounds dumb, huh? That’s how you post sounds to me.

I have to commend this thread as a whole for its breathtaking display of ignorance, absent of facts and total misunderstanding on…well, pretty much everything really. I would say it’s been a pleasure debating you all, but alas, I am obliged to conclude that single cell pond life would have done a better job than most of you on here.

No offence.

Nah, I’m kidding.

I meant it.

 

[Ifwecouldjust.......]

You say that but there are 85 Sharia councils in the UK.

Social religious based oppression is not only seemingly now a right but it's to be protected and encouraged apparently.

There's been Jewish courts since the 1700 s and Catholic courts since the middle ages ... but you aint moaning about them

 

[BigJoe#1]

Please enlighten us on what stops any of us travelling to any other part of the UK i.e freedom of movement .

Hasn't the Labour Government taken the stance that they will NOT be entering into any negotiations with the BMA....? interesting times ahead.

I thought we were assured by people on here that Labour had managed to get it all sorted.... more like they've set a precedent and made a rod for their own back.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Why Farage getting his dream of net zero migration would probably not be a good sign for the UK economy

Ed Conway says the country's last period of negative net migration was not seen as a particularly positive story at the time - and major changes to the figures are invariably not a product of direct government policy.

news.sky.com

I said you were wrong to say Reform want to deport legal migrants and you come back with this???

Spaghetti carbonara is a classic Italian pasta dish made with eggs, Pecorino Romano cheese, cured pork (usually guanciale), and black pepper, creating a rich, creamy sauce without the use of cream.

Or any other random and irrelevant piece of information.

 

[bluethrunthru]

I said you were wrong to say Reform want to deport legal migrants and you come back with this???

Spaghetti carbonara is a classic Italian pasta dish made with eggs, Pecorino Romano cheese, cured pork (usually guanciale), and black pepper, creating a rich, creamy sauce without the use of cream.

Or any other random and irrelevant piece of information.

Farage IS Reform. Without him they are nothing. If its his ultimate desire its the aim of his band of 3 MP's