Middle East Conflict

Prestwich_Blue said:
Another one who can't seem to read, or comprehend what they're reading. No it's not genocide, whatever else it is (and there's lots of bad things you could describe it as).

So apart from the methodology, which involved a deliberate attempt to systematically murder as many European Jews as humanly possible, simply because they were Jews, and the scale, 6 million of 9 million European Jews exterminated. And while one dead Gazan or Israeli is too many, we're talking about probably 1% of the civilian population of Gaza when combatants and active supporters are excluded.

You also conveniently forgot to mention that Israel is fighting a sworn enemy, which launched a murderous indiscriminate attack on their soil, involving rape and hostage taking. And they shelter behind civilians and hide in tunnels under civilian buildings while their population is getting pounded. The Jews in 1930's Germany weren't attacking peaceful German gatherings and launching rockets at German cities.

So yes, just the same as WWII. Talk some sense for fuck's sake..
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Obviously the scale is massively different and the methods are massively different. As I said they are not compatible in that sense.

But in terms of targeting civilians because of their race I believe they are both horrific forms of genocide.

The fact that they hate Israel is no surprise but its no excuse either. The fact that there was an attack by terrorists or soldiers or militia also is irrelevant to the treatment of civilians.

I'm not going to go back and forth cos it doesn't matter who's wrong or right.
 
TonyM said:
Obviously the scale is massively different and the methods are massively different. As I said they are not compatible in that sense.

But in terms of targeting civilians because of their race I believe they are both horrific forms of genocide.

The fact that they hate Israel is no surprise but its no excuse either. The fact that there was an attack by terrorists or soldiers or militia also is irrelevant to the treatment of civilians.

I'm not going to go back and forth cos it doesn't matter who's wrong or right.
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It does matter and you're wrong.

They aren't targeting civilians solely because of their race. They're targeting Hamas fighters and infrastructure, who are using civilians as human shields. To prove genocide you have to prove intent. Thats the key test. There's no doubt that the Nazis intended to exterminate every Jew (and others of various groups) as a matter of intent. That was genocide.

As has been pointed out by a few people, if there was an attempt at genocide in Gaza then the pattern of attacks by Israel would have been totally indiscriminate and there would have been vastly more casualties. Now if you're talking about October 7th, where people were targeted because they were Jewish, that's a different matter entirely.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
It does matter and you're wrong.

They aren't targeting civilians solely because of their race. They're targeting Hamas fighters and infrastructure, who are using civilians as human shields. To prove genocide you have to prove intent. Thats the key test. There's no doubt that the Nazis intended to exterminate every Jew (and others of various groups) as a matter of intent. That was genocide.

As has been pointed out by a few people, if there was an attempt at genocide in Gaza then the pattern of attacks by Israel would have been totally indiscriminate and there would have been vastly more casualties. Now if you're talking about October 7th, where people were targeted because they were Jewish, that's a different matter entirely.
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If it ever gets to a court the act of engineering a famine will be front and centre and on Genocide claims. and its going to be very hard for the Israeli government to defend their actions on that one.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
It does matter and you're wrong.

They aren't targeting civilians solely because of their race. They're targeting Hamas fighters and infrastructure, who are using civilians as human shields. To prove genocide you have to prove intent. Thats the key test. There's no doubt that the Nazis intended to exterminate every Jew (and others of various groups) as a matter of intent. That was genocide.

As has been pointed out by a few people, if there was an attempt at genocide in Gaza then the pattern of attacks by Israel would have been totally indiscriminate and there would have been vastly more casualties. Now if you're talking about October 7th, where people were targeted because they were Jewish, that's a different matter entirely.
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Look people such as Moshe Dayan understood years ago that the Palestinians would fight back for the loss of their homeland. He said he would do the same. Eduard Baruch too. And I would say they have every right to.
Hamas carried out the October 7th attack on Israelis, the people they blame for the loss of their ancestral homes. Not Jews. In fact I'd be very surprised if they were remotely bothered about the Jewish diaspora. And as I've said before, European Christians have been far more antisemitic than Moslems over the past millenniums.
Obviously the people murdered that day by an large were civilians and therefore it's a war crime. Just like what the IDF are doing in Gaza.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
I see there's condemnation in here of Israel's actions against Syria, without any condemnation of the Syrian forces massacres of the Druze in Southern Syria.
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The same 'Syrian forces' that have been massacring Alawites and other minorities deemed as Assad loyalists since December without condemnation?

The ones that have been attacking Hezbollah across the border and Palestinian factions within Syria while seeking a non aggression pact with Israel while it continues to annex more territory?

Led by the ISIS guy who had a laughable Western media led rehabilitation as a reformed jihadist and has subsequently been pictured with the likes of Macron, Lammy and others while also appearing on every Libs favourite podcast .... the one with the war propagandist and the ex spook?

Maybe the issue is Israel routinely bombing Arab cities with dubious justifications.... and they don't come more ridiculous than dressing it up as "liberal interventionism".
Prestwich_Blue said:
There's a large Druze population in Israel and they're trying to protect them and warn the Syrians off.
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So nothing to do with Jolanis headchoppers extending their reign of terror to areas which Israel seeks to annex then? Greater Israel ...
Prestwich_Blue said:
But there's a cabal on here who'd rather overlook one side committing massacres because it doesn't fit their biased narrative.
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from denial to the Euphrates ....
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
It does matter and you're wrong.

They aren't targeting civilians solely because of their race. They're targeting Hamas fighters and infrastructure, who are using civilians as human shields. To prove genocide you have to prove intent. Thats the key test. There's no doubt that the Nazis intended to exterminate every Jew (and others of various groups) as a matter of intent. That was genocide.

As has been pointed out by a few people, if there was an attempt at genocide in Gaza then the pattern of attacks by Israel would have been totally indiscriminate and there would have been vastly more casualties. Now if you're talking about October 7th, where people were targeted because they were Jewish, that's a different matter entirely.
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The method of genocide is different. Their method is to enforce ethnic cleaning which ultimately leads to genocide when civilians are violently killed or starved or denied lifesaving goods and services.

The human shield part is a poor argument imo. If they were really human shields Israel would have restrained themselves. The reality is that Israel sees them as non-human shields IMO.

Israel is on a mission of vengeance against the Palestinian people. I can understand their disgust and rage after the Oct 7th atrocities but it is still no excuse for what they are doing to the ordinary people of Gaza (or the West Bank).
 
Since 1948
Israeli losses 15000
Palestinian losses 80000
Not including the current events.
The disparity is understandable given the weapons available to both sides
What is more interesting is the civilian casualty ratio.

Palestinians 59 percent
Israelis 65 percent
So despite all the myths re IDF tactics being humane the fact is they kill almost as big a percentage of civilians as Hamas and before them the PLO.
 
robbieh said:
Appreciate the answer. Agree with the points in your first paragraph although don't think Hamas releasing all the remaining hostages would satisfy Netanyahu and his cronies. They want to evacuate Gaza, that seems clear to me.
To be honest I don't think a two state solution is happening under current Israeli leadership.
But I have always had the rather utopian view that Israelis and Palestinians could set an example to the rest of the world by having a secular one state solution. Only by living and working side by side can people begin to get rid of their huge antipathy towards each other.
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Fantastic post. Nice to see someone, even though we're largely on the opposite side of the argument mostly, post something thoughtful rather than just spouting clichés.

Couldn't agree more. I strongly suspect that if Netanyahu and his cronies don't want to clear Gaza fully (although there are some that would love that) they want to clear some of it.

Of course it would be ideal if the two sides could live side-by-side in peace but the rejectionism of that precedes even the partition in 1948.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
Of course it would be ideal if the two sides could live side-by-side in peace but the rejectionism of that precedes even the partition in 1948.
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One thing is different now. Palestinians in the 20s and 30s were understandably miffed by the huge influx of what were essentially foreigners as far as they were concerned. I imagine they thought why should we give up half the land to them.
However facts on the ground are now hugely not in their favour so if they were offered something approaching a workable state they'd possibly take it.
 
bluethrunthru said:
robbing land again

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Whether it's genocide or not he's murdering language. Maybe something was lost in translation but how can an area be demilitarised if it's also being occupied by his army?

And his idea of "shalom" needs some work.
 


David Lammy on Wednesday “if requests are made to evacuate injured children” he would be happy”
I mean who does he think is going to request help (it won’t be Israel will it) ? I mean Netanyahu is never going to ask for help for injured children
No media there to ask for it and we don’t talk to supposed terrorists Hamas so in the name of those children the public are asking for help. DO SOMETHING
 
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Yoav Gallant, Israeli Defense Minister (October 2023):
  • Referred to Palestinians as “human animals” when declaring a total siege on Gaza:
    “We are fighting human animals and are acting accordingly.”
    This dehumanizing language was used to justify actions such as cutting off food, water, and energy to Gaza

  • Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu:
  • Compared the conflict to a battle between the “sons of light” and the “sons of darkness,” and repeatedly described Hamas as “monsters,” broadening this rhetoric to encompass Palestinians in Gaza. AlsoCited the Biblical Amalek—a group biblically ordered to be “utterly destroyed”—in the context of the assault on Gaza, implying annihilation as policy and justification.
Bezalel Smotrich, Finance Minister (May 2025):
  • Stated, “In six months, Gaza would cease to exist. The surviving population would be herded into a single ‘humanitarian zone’ and—broken by despair—would depart, ‘understanding that there is no hope and nothing to look for in Gaza’”.
  • Has also denied the existence of a Palestinian people outright, which erases their collective identity and rights
  • Amihai Eliyahu, Heritage Minister:
  • Suggested the possibility of dropping a nuclear bomb on Gaza during a radio interview, later describing his comments as “metaphorical.” He stated, “They [Palestinians] can go to Ireland or to the deserts. The monsters in Gaza should find their own solution.”
  • He was subsequently suspended from cabinet meetings, but the remarks caused international outrage.
  • Avi Dichter, Minister (November 2023):
  • Said, “We are now rolling out the Gaza Nakba,” directly referencing the 1948 mass displacement of Palestinians, and stated, “Gaza Nakba 2023. That’s how it’ll end,” implying mass expulsion or destruction
Multiple Independent reports and human rights organizations—including Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch—have documented a broad trend in Israeli official rhetoric that explicitly or implicitly calls for the destruction, displacement, or collective punishment of Palestinians in Gaza. These have included:

  • Direct incitement to deprive Gaza’s population of the necessities for life—food, water, fuel.
  • Calls to render Gaza “uninhabitable” or statements celebrating the erasure of the territory
Further more
  • An average of 100 civilians being killed a day, possibly more. No one knows what's under the rubble
  • The deadliest conflict of the 21st century for civilians and only 2 years in.
... I don't get were these idiots are getting their shouts of Genocide from. Sure the IDF fella said they are targeting Hamas only.

Seriously though I hope the posters saying it isn't are right.
 
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and they still go down the "oops its a mistake" line - and some posters on here support them and even argue over what word to call this like like the deaths of tens of thousands of women and kids can be excused by semantics

 
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