Keir Starmer

[Vic]

The notion that todays pensioners had it easy (which is what I responded to), I cannot agree with.
There are opportunities today for everyone if you are willing to grasp the nettle.

Of course there will be exceptions, but in the main, life will always be a compromise off desire and struggle

Well, Macmillan wasn't far wrong when he said "You've never had it so good". It was an era when you could relatively easily change jobs - or stay with one company all your working life and get your long-service watch (and a final salary occupational pension). Some of the manual jobs were not good for your health, but after Macmillan we somehow ended up with Tebbit and "Get on your bike and look for work".

 

[WRicko]

Not all.
Life is a grind no matter which generation you were

It’s a grind for some but not all in all generations but on average it’s getting worse. The pension needs reform it’s the government job to look after those that need it as much as possible without burdening those paying for it. It’s not there job to look after everyone to the maximum amount at greatest cost to those paying for it

 

[hilts]

What about subjecting it to the actuarial calculation used to buy an annuity from a pension pot? The richer you are, the longer you're more likely to live - so the poorer pensioners should get more because they're not going to live as long... A sort of life expectancy testing. (But the rich will have paid more in tax before retiring.)

The original old age pension was calculated on an assumption that you might get it for less than five years before you died. But getting the pension meant being able to retire sooner, and not working till you dropped then increased life expectancy!

(This pensions debate probably needs its own thread - unless anyone thinks Starmer, or any other politician, knows the answer to how to manage pensions with an ageing population in an age of disparity of wealth and a declining birthrate - the latter at least partly due to this generation not being able to afford to start a family...)

Sorry cant take you seriously with your life expectancy test to determine how much state pension you get. Its utterly bizarre.

 

[expatblue]

Sorry cant take you seriously with your life expectancy test to determine how much state pension you get. Its utterly bizarre.

First they came for the reasonably well off and then they came for the pensioners, it's justified because those uber eats and new mobile phones wont pay for themselves.

 

[threespires]

Sorry cant take you seriously with your life expectancy test to determine how much state pension you get. Its utterly bizarre.

Don't worry about any of this, Wesley's got a genome sequencing project that's going to sort all of this out. He's a very confident young man so I'm positive he'll have a plan to control all the forces it unleashes.

 

[We've got Guardiola]

Not all.
Life is a grind no matter which generation you were

The difference in wealth today will be down to timing and circumstances, not the grind. The wealthiest people in 30 years time will be those who had something passed down to them, it'll have nothing to do with work.

My brother is paying £1,000pm renting in town but he only earns somewhat north of £2k so nearly 50% of his spare cash goes on housing. He needs at least £25/£30k for a deposit so even if he somehow put away £200pm that's 10 years of saving. In that time he will have already paid his deposit and more just in rent. Meanwhile his rent is still going up faster annually than his wage does so this situation will only worsen.

The secondary thing is the tax thresholds are completely broken. If you earn over £50k then you are taxed at 40% on everything you earn above that. £50k is not a big wage but what is the point in working harder on that salary when 40% is taken away from you? It isn't like you work for 40% less time, you work for the exact same amount of time.

Working harder has no bearing on wealth or even general life outcomes and that's the problem. The social contract between work and reward is broken so is it any surprise that many are just choosing not to work? Chuck in living costs, childcare costs etc. It's pretty grim.

The only available answer nowadays is to get a better job or get a partner/mate to split costs but pensioners today did not need to make these choices. My dad was a welder his entire life, he didn't have to sell his soul to the corporate world, jump into management, or move in with his mate to be able to attain the absolute basics to live.

 

[mosssideblue]

It’s a grind for some but not all in all generations but on average it’s getting worse. The pension needs reform it’s the government job to look after those that need it as much as possible without burdening those paying for it. It’s not there job to look after everyone to the maximum amount at greatest cost to those paying for it

Was I and thousands of others not burdened with paying for pensioners then, as well as paying taxes, trying to raise and bring up a family?

 

[mosssideblue]

The difference in wealth today will be down to timing and circumstances, not the grind. The wealthiest people in 30 years time will be those who had something passed down to them, it'll have nothing to do with work.

My brother is paying £1,000pm renting in town but he only earns somewhat north of £2k so nearly 50% of his spare cash goes on housing. He needs at least £25/£30k for a deposit so even if he somehow put away £200pm that's 10 years of saving. In that time he will have already paid his deposit and then much more just in rent, and his rent is still going up faster annually than his wage does so this situation will only worsen.

The secondary thing is the tax thresholds are completely broken. If you earn over £50k then you are taxed at 40% on everything you earn above that. £50k is not a big wage but what is the point in working harder on that salary when 40% is taken away from you? It isn't like you work for 40% less time, you work for the exact same amount of time.

Working harder will have no bearing on outcomes and that's the problem. The social contract between work and
reward is broken so is it any surprise that many are just choosing not to work?

The only available answer nowadays is to get a better job or get a partner/mate to split costs but pensioners today did not need to make these choices in their younger days. My dad was a welder his entire life, he didn't have to sell his soul to the corporate world or jump into management to be able to attain the absolute basics to live.

Pensioners today certainly had to make choices in their younger days to get on in life, let’s not fall into the narrative that today’s pensioners had it easy.

 

[mackenzie]

The whole system generally needs an overhaul and we need politicians (of every party) to be honest.
You can't aim to please everyone all of the time because it usually ends up pleasing nobody.

There has to be a better balance between helping people who genuinely need the help and NOT placing the burden constantly on those who work hard, play by the rules and save their money. It's completely disincentivizing.

 

[We've got Guardiola]

Pensioners today certainly had to make choices in their younger days to get on in life, let’s not fall into the narrative that today’s pensioners had it easy.

I'm not saying they had it easy, I'm saying that if they led a normal working life then there's a strong chance that they'll have it easy now.

This will not be the story for young people in 40 years time. Young people today will ride the exact wave in terms of work but at the end of their working life they'll have absolutely nothing unless something is left to them.

The pension age will probably be increased anyway to the point that their last day in work will see them leaving work in an ambulance in their 70s.

 

[mosssideblue]

I'm not saying they had it easy, I'm saying that if they led a normal working life then there's a strong chance that they'll have it easy now.

This will not be the story for young people in 40 years time. Young people today will ride the exact wave in terms of work but at the end of their working life they'll have absolutely nothing unless something is left to them.

The pension age will probably be increased anyway to the point that their last day in work will see them leaving work in an ambulance in their 70s.

I just think you are blaming the wrong cohort for the youngsters plight today.

Pensioners are an easy target for some to blame, I strongly disagree

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

When I was much younger I got my first flat.... 1990s. I moved into it with my only piece of furniture - a settee, in a shopping trolley. No job, no quals, no future. The council threatened to take my flat unless i got a job, so I did.
I didnt look back, I saved and saved, went up the ladder, pensions, shares-saves, not spending money on vanity stuff, spending money on my kids instead... Education, sports, futures.

So, now being told I had it easy is like.. .fuckoff, I worked hard. And my kids are going to reap the rewards of my hard work. Even better, they like working for their own future.

 

[hilts]

How quick a demographic turns and blames another while those responsible continue to amass more money, gullible fools.

 

[BlueRockape]

When I was much younger I got my first flat.... 1990s. I moved into it with my only piece of furniture - a settee, in a shopping trolley. No job, no quals, no future. The council threatened to take my flat unless i got a job, so I did.
I didnt look back, I saved and saved, went up the ladder, pensions, shares-saves, not spending money on vanity stuff, spending money on my kids instead... Education, sports, futures.

So, now being told I had it easy is like.. .fuckoff, I worked hard. And my kids are going to reap the rewards of my hard work. Even better, they like working for their own future.

Same as.
Plus I put four kids through university of different degrees of excellence.
They all have good jobs and work hard.
I live in Spain if I lived in the UK I doubt I could survive on 900 quid a month I don't know how pensioners survive on state pension

 

[We've got Guardiola]

When I was much younger I got my first flat.... 1990s. I moved into it with my only piece of furniture - a settee, in a shopping trolley. No job, no quals, no future. The council threatened to take my flat unless i got a job, so I did.
I didnt look back, I saved and saved, went up the ladder, pensions, shares-saves, not spending money on vanity stuff, spending money on my kids instead... Education, sports, futures.

So, now being told I had it easy is like.. .fuckoff, I worked hard. And my kids are going to reap the rewards of my hard work. Even better, they like working for their own future.

Totally ignorant post. In my last post I never said people didn't work for anything, you however had a clearly defined path for which you worked and reaped the rewards. Young people work too but they don't get the same rewards! Young people today can work to the bone and still be completely unable to afford a basic standard of living.

I mentioned my brother and he pays £1000pm in rent and realistically after bills he probably has about £500pm spare and that includes feeding himself and doing something other than breathing. Your solution is that he should 'work harder' or basically live off tinned beans so that he can save £200pm for a house that will take 10+ years to save up for... Can you see how ridiculous that is?

He was offered a below inflation payrise last year but inflation is 3%+, food inflation is even higher. His rent also goes up above inflation. Every year it's just a fact that he gets poorer in absolute real terms before any ability to do anything about it and you think he should just needs to 'save' or 'work' more? The system today is rigged against him before he even sets foot into work.

Every single statistic proves this. The average age of a first time buyer is now 32 whereas 30 years ago it was mid 20's. UK household debt is at the highest ever, the ratio of bills to wages has never been higher, the ratio of housing prices to salary was once around 2x salary, it's now nearly 8x salary!! And yet, the housing market continues to rise....

What is really happening is the wealthiest (and that includes pensioners) and their pension funds are sustaining a totally unsustainable housing market to fuel their own greed. In 2008 greed and foolishness totally destroyed the western economy and we haven't learnt a single lesson from it.

 

[hilts]

Totally ignorant post. In my last post I never said people didn't work for anything, you however had a clearly defined path for which you worked and reaped the rewards. Young people work too but they don't get the same rewards! Young people today can work to the bone and still be completely unable to afford a basic standard of living.

I mentioned my brother and he pays £1000pm in rent and realistically after bills he probably has about £500pm spare and that includes feeding himself and doing something other than breathing. Your solution is that he should 'work harder' or basically live off tinned beans so that he can save £200pm for a house that will take 10+ years to save up for... Can you see how ridiculous that is?

He was offered a below inflation payrise last year but inflation is 3%+, food inflation is even higher. His rent also goes up above inflation. Every year it's just a fact that he gets poorer in absolute real terms before any ability to do anything about it and you think he should just needs to 'save' or 'work' more? The system today is rigged against him before he even sets foot into work.

Every single statistic proves this. The average age of a first time buyer is now 32 whereas 30 years ago it was mid 20's. UK household debt is at the highest ever, the ratio of bills to wages has never been higher, the ratio of housing prices to salary was once around 2x salary, it's now nearly 8x salary!!

What is really happening is the wealthiest (and that includes pensioners) and their pension funds are sustaining a totally unsustainable housing market to fuel their own greed. In 2008 greed and foolishness totally destroyed the western economy and we haven't learnt a single lesson from it.

Why is a pensioner sustaining an unsustainable housing market?

 

[BlueRockape]

Totally ignorant post. In my last post I never said people didn't work for anything, you however had a clearly defined path for which you worked and reaped the rewards. Young people work too but they don't get the same rewards! Young people today can work to the bone and still be completely unable to afford a basic standard of living.

I mentioned my brother and he pays £1000pm in rent and realistically after bills he probably has about £500pm spare and that includes feeding himself and doing something other than breathing. Your solution is that he should 'work harder' or basically live off tinned beans so that he can save £200pm for a house that will take 10+ years to save up for... Can you see how ridiculous that is?

He was offered a below inflation payrise last year but inflation is 3%+, food inflation is even higher. His rent also goes up above inflation so either way the system is rigged against him. Every year it's just a fact that he gets poorer in absolute real terms before any ability to do anything about it and you think he should just needs to 'save' or 'work' more?

Every single statistic proves this. The average age of a first time buyer is now 32 whereas 30 years ago it was mid 20's. UK household debt is at the highest ever, the ratio of bills to wages has never been higher, the ratio of housing prices to salary was once around 2x salary, it's now nearly 8x salary!!

What is really happening is the wealthiest (and that includes pensioners) and their pension funds are sustaining a totally unsustainable housing market to fuel their own greed. In 2008 greed and foolishness totally destroyed the western economy and we haven't learnt a single lesson from it.

At the age of 69 try living on 900 a month and a mortgage still to pay.
My choice I chose my children first so the mortgage had to wait.
But thank fuck I don't have the extortionate bills I would have in the uk

 

[We've got Guardiola]

Why is a pensioner sustaining an unsustainable housing market?

Indirectly because they're sat on assets that have appreciated by around 5000%+ and they plan to capitalise upon every single penny of that appreciation and preferably tax-free! They're also often invested into far more lucrative pensions such as final salary pensions which have similarly capitalised upon the exact same thing.

I know that pensioners can't do anything about this directly but I find that they're the worst people when it comes to sharing the load whether that be paying tax or taking away things like WFA which many just do not need. When you think of things like Brexit this generation of pensioners are the first in history to sequentially vote for a worst standard of living for their own children in favour of their own.

None of these things will be available to young people now or in the future. You cannot capitalise upon the appreciation of an asset that you will never own. You cannot capitalise upon your pension when you don't have enough income spare to put into a pension.

Just remember that 1/3 of pensioners are asset millionaires whilst 3/3 of young people today have a net worth of nothing. And people are fighting the corner of the pensioners, why? This is about fairness. Young people are not working on the same terms because the system is simply rigged against them.

 

[mosssideblue]

Indirectly because they're sat on assets that have appreciated by around 5000%+ and they plan to capitalise upon every single penny of that appreciation and preferably tax-free! They're also often invested into far more lucrative pensions such as final salary pensions which have similarly capitalised upon the exact same thing.

None of these things will be available to young people now or in the future. You cannot capitalise upon the appreciation of an asset that you will never ever own. You cannot capitalise upon your pension when you don't have enough income spare to put into a pension.

I know that pensioners can't do anything about this directly but I find that they're the worst people when it comes to sharing the load whether that be paying tax or taking away things like WFA which many just do not need. When you think of things like Brexit this generation of pensioners are the first in history to sequentially vote for a worst standard of living for their own children.

Just remember that 1/3 of pensioners are asset millionaires whilst 3/3 of young people today have a net worth of nothing. And people are fighting the corner of the pensioners, why?

Are you saying that if youngsters today had the same opportunities ( which they do imo), as today’s pensioners when younger, they wouldn’t do the same as pensioners did then?

 

[Vic]

Sorry cant take you seriously with your life expectancy test to determine how much state pension you get. Its utterly bizarre.

Yet it's exactly how an annuity from a private pension pot works.