Otamendi

[SWP's back]

Denayer has played 3 times for Belgium (competitive games against Israel and Wales, a friendly against France), and 44 times, in his career, for someone's first team, and that someone was Celtic. Regular appearances, and top performances, against the likes of Kilmarnock, Dundee and Ross County are all well and good, but they're not exactly footballing powerhouses. I think it's possible you're overrating where Denayer is currently with regards to his game.

Even if we don't sign Otamendi Denayer is still likely to play less than 20 times for City this season (with Kompany and Mangala getting the lion's share of starts). There's a strong argument that, with so little first team experience, and at such a lower standard, he'd actually benefit more from a full season as a regular starter in one of Europe's top divisions than he would playing a support role for City.

Great post. You have so much more patience than I do.

 

[Matty]

Ah but have you seen Denayer play football? He's no Phil Jones.... he is a proper footballer. Technically as good as the likes of Fernandinho etc. Phil Jones is just a clogger and always was.

I wasn't doing a skill comparison, I was doing a situation comparison. Young player, played out of position, growth in natural position therefore hampered. I stand by that. If you've got a potentially excellent centre half, that just needs experience, and some rough edges smoothing off, why on earth thrown him on as a midfielder, for 15 minutes, in top division football matches? He's learning nothing about the role he needs to play long term, and there's the very real potential his confidence could be damaged if he puts in some less than impressive performances in an unnatural role.

 

[paulchapo]

If we are stronger for buying Otamendi, I couldn't give a fuck really.

This all day long! We are both of an age where we saw all these so called top players come through our much vaunted youth system and not one made it to the very top level,the closest being your name sake. Remember Redmond,Moulden,White,Hinchcliffe,Lakey etcetera? Lakey may have made it except for injury,the last big name was Michael Johnstone and he crashed and burned too.

We have more or less cracked the domestic set up it is now time to move up to do the same in Europe and to do that we have to buy the best end of!

 

[The Richard Wright Fan Club]

Is this not the Otamendi thread.

Sorry if it's not.

 

[Thaksinssoldier]

I will say that this can work...unless Pellers decides to bring DeMichelis on with 10 mins to go when we are 4-0 up against whoever. Please for the love of god don't bring an established lad on over a kid.

 

[kaz7]

Has everyone forgot what Khaldoon said?

We'll see youth but not at the expense of the first team

Exactly right thing to do

 

[schfc6]

he asked are there twenty year old squad players at similer clubs to ours and the answer is yes there are loads.

It was quite clear we are discussing centre halves. You named midfielders who don't really play and two older centre backs. One being a huge exception. As I say, I believe Denayer will match Zouma's 15 appearances in the next year.

 

[Ducado]

If Denayer is as good as he thinks he is (along with fans that have actually watched him play including myself) he has nothing to worry about. He will get plenty of game time once the cup comps come round. For the first time in ages we are going to be in a position where mid week european games, league cup games etc won't totally screw our league form up as we will be able to 'rotate' and rotate with quality at that! Chill out everyone

Exactly

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

Totally disagree with that.

Look at Phil Jones, the best way to ruin a promising young footballer's career is to play him out of position. Denayer is a centre half, he needs to play football at centre half in order to develop in that role. Playing him, in cameos, as a defensive midfielder, does no-one any good whatsoever.

Not sure Phil Jones is a fitting comparison. He's been more or less a utility player for the rags, and has never shown the technical ability Denayer has.

Denayer needs senior football, "man's football" as Vieira put it.

Giving Denayer minutes in front of the back four would be a good compromise IMO, I think it's a position he's played before at some stage as well.

He's an intelligent player with lots of ability, all he's lacking is experience and possibly a bit of the physical side.

I wouldn't rule it out, doesn't make any less sense than playing Demichelis there, IMO.

He'd still get the odd start at centre half in cups, and learn a new position and get that crucial experience.

 

[SWP's back]

If Denayer is as good as he thinks he is (along with fans that have actually watched him play including myself) he has nothing to worry about. He will get plenty of game time once the cup comps come round. For the first time in ages we are going to be in a position where mid week european games, league cup games etc won't totally screw our league form up as we will be able to 'rotate' and rotate with quality at that! Chill out everyone

Well said. How many times have we brought people in for cup games or weekend after tough CL games and suffered. By all accounts we shouldn't now.

 

[blue5ter]

People are getting incredibly worked up considering we don't know how the line up will look at the end of the window. We don't know whether MDM will still be here for a start, which has a huge bearing. If MDM is to go, imagine we don't sign otamendi - our only back up to mangala/kompany for the entire season would suddenly by denayer

Conversely, if MDM is here for the whole season, we don't know if denayer is going out on loan

So without those facts, it's a little premature

Meanwhile, when it comes to youth, it's very difficult - one reason youth gets a better chance in other teams is that those other teams can't afford top class players in every position, so they'd rather a risk playing a kid who may have the added benefit of being sold to raise funds, who will also improve through playing time, than a journeyman

plus centreback is really tricky to slowly introduce a kid to at a top team - it's not like throwing a kid on in an attacking position with 30 minutes to go and seeing how he does. One bad mistake as CB and you could be scr****d.

 

[Matty]

Not sure Phil Jones is a fitting comparison. He's been more or less a utility player for the rags, and has never shown the technical ability Denayer has.

Denayer needs senior football, "man's football" as Vieira put it.

Giving Denayer minutes in front of the back four would be a good compromise IMO, I think it's a position he's played before at some stage as well.

He's an intelligent player with lots of ability, all he's lacking is experience and possibly a bit of the physical side.

I wouldn't rule it out, doesn't make any less sense than playing Demichelis there, IMO.

He'd still get the odd start at centre half in cups, and learn a new position and get that crucial experience.

See my response to twosips. I simply don't buy into the premise of playing youngsters out of position as being anything other than a mistake. Sure, there's the potential for it to be a positive move, but there's a great deal of risk involved, and the positive that could be gained isn't sufficient enough for it to be worth the risk.

 

[Neville Kneville]

But you can't simply ignore the size issue. He's either ready and able to play regularly for City, or he's not. The reasons why he isn't aren't actually all that relevant. Whatever they are they exist, and they need time in order to eradicate. If he needs to fill out then let him do so, with training, and games somewhere else for a season. If it's a technical issue then, again, let him train to improve, and get games somewhere else. City don't need to be a "learn on the job" side these days, we can get that kind of stuff done elsewhere, and bring them in when there's far less rough edges.

City will most likely be a learn on the job side for Otamendi, just like we were for Mangala & Demichelis.
I've already said I would not consider Denayer a guaranteed success at cb in the Premier League right now. I hope Otanendi takes to it instantly but I don't trust him either.

Denayer imo is close to the best 1v1 defender we have got at the club. He is the best footballing defender we have. We should be able to find a job for him to play regularly.

 

[Big Yaya Wilko 12]

So have we actually agreed a fee?

Brennan saying that Valencia coach said they will announce when everything's agreed. . .

 

[SWP's back]

Yet again you're harassing me for giving an opinion. Give it a rest.

Harrassing? Come off it.

As ric just said in the KDB thread, it's an amazing time to be a blue.

Signed the best English player and best under 20 in Europe.

Signing the best player in Germany.

Signing the best defender in Spain.

And yet some people are unhappy because a 20 year old lad may need to have another season on loan.

 

[whicko]

So we have lost Denayer (his agents comments basically confirm we have taken the piss out of him). I am fuming, he is the best young CB in europe for me.
We also risk losing Mangala, if we drop him for Otamendi which i expect will happen.
Stupid deal for me (and no im not a fucking rag).

Rag

 

[Vincents Tackle]

Best English talent
Best player in Germany
Best defender in Spain
Not bad......

Txiki out!!!

 

[SWP's back]

This all day long! We are both of an age where we saw all these so called top players come through our much vaunted youth system and not one made it to the very top level,the closest being your name sake. Remember Redmond,Moulden,White,Hinchcliffe,Lakey etcetera? Lakey may have made it except for injury,the last big name was Michael Johnstone and he crashed and burned too.

We have more or less cracked the domestic set up it is now time to move up to do the same in Europe and to do that we have to buy the best end of!

You leave David White alone. I love him.

 

[Matty]

City will most likely be a learn on the job side for Otamendi, just like we were for Mangala & Demichelis.
I've already said I would not consider Denayer a guaranteed success at cb in the Premier League right now. I hope Otanendi takes to it instantly but I don't trust him either.

Denayer imo is close to the best 1v1 defender we have got at the club. He is the best footballing defender we have. We should be able to find a job for him to play regularly.

Otamendi is 27 years old!!! If he's learning on the job (any more than ANY player develops on the job) then he's nowhere near the level we need! Mangala was a closer comparison, albeit one with more experience, and look how he struggled last season.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Ah but have you seen Denayer play football? He's no Phil Jones.... he is a proper footballer. Technically as good as the likes of Fernandinho etc. Phil Jones is just a clogger and always was.

This.
Load of bollocks that it will harm Denayer to play another position. It will just get him used to the pace of the league, same as with Kompany. He may be too good to be a cb long term anyway.