Rony Lopes

[franksinatra]

For years the argument has been the reorganisation of the club has resulted in the kids not being good enough. Players like Sturridge, Suarez, Guidetti have gone by the way side.

Last season when we were confirmed a second place finish, the kids could not even get 20 mins of first team action when the result was decided in other wise mundane home matches. The argument was Denayer, Lopes were out on loan and they would become part of the set up nxt year.

Now Lopes has left without being given a chance (even though he is 19 and impressed in france) and Denayer after reputed assurances will be loaned out and likely to seek pastures new due to the signing of Otamendi.

The argument seems to be we cannot trust the young players as if we are going to throw them into a championship decider. Denayer has just won player of the year in Scotland, represented his country and yet cannot even be considered fourth choice for us. For argument sake lets say he has a great season this year, is he then really going to want and come back and be fourth choice next season? Signing Otamendi on a five year deal has sealed his fate. It was an unnecessary signing and a slap in the face for our best prospect. Denayer as an international is already more than good enough to face the Leicesters, Bournemouths, West Broms of this world. If we did lose those home matches there would be wider issues than the performance of one young player. The senior players would be more than culpable for such a failing. The club has no faith or inclination to promote our own. I do not know what more Denayer could have achieved, at this stage in his career, to be considered good enough for a place in the squad

 

[almir]

He'll be worth £30m in a couple of years.

Or not. I don't like the way City are not giving youth a chance but come on guys, if he was such great talent a people are making him here he would either stay here or some better team would pay that money for him.

He will potentially be good player but there is fuck all guarantee in that, right now he isn't a world beater that would make you put a gead on plate for him to make it big.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

How do you know till you actually play them.

it's the million dollar question, but sometimes it's a combination of extraordinary form in the EDS/loan, tearing it up in training and gut feel. It's something Barca have an advantage in because they have a proper B team to really get a much better picture than we can with the EDS. I'm not excusing City entirely, just offering reasons and my perspective. I think it's easier to blood them when you have an immense first team around them which can almost carry the game without a contribution, like Barca can, and I think the manager also needs to feel secure. I don't think Pelle has every really felt that, nor have our first team consistently delivered those performances. Perhaps, if we could wrap up the league like Chelsea did last season, Pelle would feel confident enough to do so. If Pep comes in, I certainly see them having more chances, but we'll have a much stronger squad as well.

 

[Neville Kneville]

For years the argument has been the reorganisation of the club has resulted in the kids not being good enough. Players like Sturridge, Suarez, Guidetti have gone by the way side.

Last season when we were confirmed a second place finish, the kids could not even get 20 mins of first team action when the result was decided in other wise mundane home matches. The argument was Denayer, Lopes were out on loan and they would become part of the set up nxt year.

Now Lopes has left without being given a chance (even though he is 19 and impressed in france) and Denayer after reputed assurances will be loaned out and likely to seek pastures new due to the signing of Otamendi.

The argument seems to be we cannot trust the young players as if we are going to throw them into a championship decider. Denayer has just won player of the year in Scotland, represented his country and yet cannot even be considered fourth choice for us. For argument sake lets say he has a great season this year, is he then really going to want and come back and be fourth choice next season? Signing Otamendi on a five year deal has sealed his fate. It was an unnecessary signing and a slap in the face for our best prospect. Denayer as an international is already more than good enough to face the Leicesters, Bournemouths, West Broms of this world. If we did lose those home matches there would be wider issues than the performance of one young player. The senior players would be more than culpable for such a failing. The club has no faith or inclination to promote our own. I do not know what more Denayer could have achieved, at this stage in his career, to be considered good enough for a place in the squad

Absolutely spot on.

 

[dasblues]

humility? here are people making up quotes for me, calling the club liars over Denayer and proclaiming there's no point in watching our academy anymore. Meanwhile, I merely point out we're in a different situation to Liverpool and Spurs because we're a title challenger, and they aren't, and somehow I lack and humility and am arrogant, not those making up large chunks of things none of us our privy to, to suit their pre-determined view to attack our club.

I think you're a bit misguided with that to be honest.

people are criticising the club and you want to defend it, I get that to a degree.

But talk of elite clubs and criticising other clubs about their spending is crass in my opinion.

Who are these elite clubs , Barca , real , Bayern , Liverpool dare I say United ? We need another 10 years minimum to get there , it's a long time to wait before we can blood a decent youth prospect

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

For years the argument has been the reorganisation of the club has resulted in the kids not being good enough. Players like Sturridge, Suarez, Guidetti have gone by the way side.

Last season when we were confirmed a second place finish, the kids could not even get 20 mins of first team action when the result was decided in other wise mundane home matches. The argument was Denayer, Lopes were out on loan and they would become part of the set up nxt year.

Now Lopes has left without being given a chance (even though he is 19 and impressed in france) and Denayer after reputed assurances will be loaned out and likely to seek pastures new due to the signing of Otamendi.

The argument seems to be we cannot trust the young players as if we are going to throw them into a championship decider. Denayer has just won player of the year in Scotland, represented his country and yet cannot even be considered fourth choice for us. For argument sake lets say he has a great season this year, is he then really going to want and come back and be fourth choice next season? Signing Otamendi on a five year deal has sealed his fate. It was an unnecessary signing and a slap in the face for our best prospect. Denayer as an international is already more than good enough to face the Leicesters, Bournemouths, West Broms of this world. If we did lose those home matches there would be wider issues than the performance of one young player. The senior players would be more than culpable for such a failing. The club has no faith or inclination to promote our own. I do not know what more Denayer could have achieved, at this stage in his career, to be considered good enough for a place in the squad

great post !

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

We are in transition, so it's a great time to also bring through a few kids. Could save us millions on replacing Nasri Navas, Clichy, Zaba etc.

It can be, again I just point to the wider context and the pressures that the whole staff must be under to win trophies, especially the Champions League. If I look back to Ferran and Txiki at Barca, the 2009 team had more youth and a progressive feel to it than the 2006 team, which used a lot more established stars and signings to get the job done and win that first CL. I get the feeling we have a similar approach this time around, and that we are building a world class squad that will then be complemented by young players, but I think for now the focus is the best, proven squad we can assemble to win those trophies. That's just my view.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Or not. I don't like the way City are not giving youth a chance but come on guys, if he was such great talent a people are making him here he would either stay here or some better team would pay that money for him.

He will potentially be good player but there is fuck all guarantee in that, right now he isn't a world beater that would make you put a gead on plate for him to make it big.

He might not make it, or he might turn out a star.

The point is, that it's City who should be finding that out, not another team. He has not had enough time at the club in the first team, for any coach to accurately make that decision. Some on here are claiming that's not the case, & that you have to be a profesional coach to have an opinion, then why the fucking hell have Monaco just shelled out 9 million quid for a 19 year old kid ?

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Anybody that watches the EDS will tell you that the selection of Pozo in that position was fucking ridiculous, on both form & the fact that he never had a prayer against two giant cbs. It just adds to the impression that Pellegrini has no plan at all regarding the young players.

Pozo was a star, then picked up a long term injury, then another & has never looked the same since. It might be a mental thing or he might be finished, but he has barely been worth a place in the EDS for the past two seasons, which makes Pellegrini's decision to pick him, all the more ridiculous.

Neville,

You said you've been watching the young uns for quite a while, so you have me at quite a disadvantage, as I've only seen Pozo play a handful of times. I find him to be a greedy, heads down player who thinks he is a star playMAKER. A poor man's David Silva is the most generous allusion I could possibly suggest, but I see bigger, stronger, more technically (from a mature player perspective) proficient players at the EDS than Pozo. Clearly, as you rightly say, dropping Pozo into the CF position last season did Pozo no favors at all. He is so obviously not a CF that I wondered what was going on, especially with Milner, Silva, Toure and Nasri in the squad.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

people are criticising the club and you want to defend it, I get that to a degree.

But talk of elite clubs and criticising other clubs about their spending is crass in my opinion.

Who are these elite clubs , Barca , real , Bayern , Liverpool dare I say United ? We need another 10 years minimum to get there , it's a long time to wait before we can blood a decent youth prospect

Ok, that's an argument on the definition of elite. What I mean by it, is a club established as a regular league winning, and CL competing/winning side. It's about the current state of the club, not just historical success. So no, not waiting 10 years, but I just think we're in a several year transition and want to rack up multiple trophies, including a CL, within the next 2/3 seasons. I think within that there will be a gradual promotion of youth, particularly if Pep comes in, but the current focus is on making the strongest possible squad and first team, and if that is then supplemented by some youth over the season then great, if not, for this season, so be it.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

maybe not, but having watched these kids play so well i can understand the fear about us becoming chelsea in terms of chances. we do have some of the best young players in the country imo and it would be a waste if at least one of them didn't get into the team ..

I agree, and I hope we don't as well, but it's far too early to judge that, considering Chelsea have been selling kids at a profit for years and we've just sold one.

 

[Neville Kneville]

It can be, again I just point to the wider context and the pressures that the whole staff must be under to win trophies, especially the Champions League. If I look back to Ferran and Txiki at Barca, the 2009 team had more youth and a progressive feel to it than the 2006 team, which used a lot more established stars and signings to get the job done and win that first CL. I get the feeling we have a similar approach this time around, and that we are building a world class squad that will then be complemented by young players, but I think for now the focus is the best, proven squad we can assemble to win those trophies. That's just my view.

I don't disagree with any of that, it's the idea that a few kids on the bench & getting a chance during the season, is a terrible risk, which is my problem. If they can't hack it, they don't get to play an important part, if they can, they do, it's as straightforward as that. Sub them on at comfortable times in games v lesser teams, & see how they go.

At least one will take to it, they always do.

 

[abellwillring]

to be considered good enough for a place in the squad

The problem is that just being a "squad player" is not the best for anyone involved when said "squad player" is 20 years old and developing. It isn't good for City, because being a 4th choice CB means minimal playing time and minimal growth, and it isn't good for Denayer because he needs to be playing every game to continue to develop into the player he can be.

This is where a B team is beneficial. In that scenario, you've got your young player playing professional football on a weekly basis but in the instance where you need them to play for the parent club, he's available immediately at any time. Until a B team system is in place, don't put much stock in City being able to play and develop youth at the rate you'd prefer. On the plus side, nearly all of the youth we re-signed this summer signed 5 year deals so we won't have to worry about a guy being down to 1 year left on his deal when he's right there in that window of uncertainty regarding his development.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Neville,

You said you've been watching the young uns for quite a while, so you have me at quite a disadvantage, as I've only seen Pozo play a handful of times. I find him to be a greedy, heads down player who thinks he is a star playMAKER. A poor man's David Silva is the most generous allusion I could possibly suggest, but I see bigger, stronger, more technically (from a mature player perspective) proficient players at the EDS than Pozo. Clearly, as you rightly say, dropping Pozo into the CF position last season did Pozo no favors at all. He is so obviously not a CF that I wondered what was going on, especially with Milner, Silva, Toure and Nasri in the squad.

I'm not sure there will be one person who watches the kids play, who will be able to tell you why Pozo played in that game. I think there will be very few who will be able to tell you why Rony Lopes has been allowed to run his contract down & be sold, when he is twice as good as Pozo.

Pozo isn't really greedy btw, he has just lost it & that is a symptom.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

I don't disagree with any of that, it's the idea that a few kids on the bench & getting a chance during the season, is a terrible risk, which is my problem. If they can't hack it, they don't get to play an important part, if they can, they do, it's as straightforward as that. Sub them on at comfortable times in games v lesser teams, & see how they go.

At least one will take to it, they always do.

well it is a risk, and one I think we're more cautious over at this current time. It's not a terrible risk, just we're more cautious and averse to the risk, which is larger to us than many other clubs, in my humble opinion. With Bony out, Iheanacho will at least be on the bench tomorrow, we'll see if he gets time, it's not the end of the world if he doesn't, but ultimately, slightly perversely, it's up to the first team to have the game sewn up so that he can get game time, too often we don't, and it becomes risky, and possibly makes us more averse to take the chance in more comfortable games, just a thought.

 

[franksinatra]

I don't disagree with any of that, it's the idea that a few kids on the bench & getting a chance during the season, is a terrible risk, which is my problem. If they can't hack it, they don't get to play an important part, if they can, they do, it's as straightforward as that. Sub them on at comfortable times in games v lesser teams, & see how they go.

At least one will take to it, they always do.

That is exactly what is required. Anyone arguing blooding a kid in a crucial fixture is a risk has a valid argument. But a number of matches are finished at half time/60 minute mark. Give them some game time, see how they adapt. FFs we are not talking about kids dragged of the street. The likes of Rekik has won a title and played for his country, Denayer too. Lopes in the french Ligue 1.

We are doing these kids a disservice. Everytime we deny them an opportunity we are reinforcing the mantra that the kids at City do not get a chance. How can we argue that now?

 

[Ray78]

The door has not been completely slammed shut. The current EDS lads will still get chances to train with the first team and if one or two catch Pellegrini's eye then the opportunity would still be there to be included in the match day squad.

 

[Neville Kneville]

well it is a risk, and one I think we're more cautious over at this current time. It's not a terrible risk, just we're more cautious and averse to the risk, which is larger to us than many other clubs, in my humble opinion. With Bony out, Iheanacho will at least be on the bench tomorrow, we'll see if he gets time, it's not the end of the world if he doesn't, but ultimately, slightly perversely, it's up to the first team to have the game sewn up so that he can get game time, too often we don't, and it becomes risky, and possibly makes us more averse to take the chance in more comfortable games, just a thought.

Look at last season, the lack of fitness & confidence of Fernando, the shit form of Kolarov, Dzeko's lack of effort, Kompany injured & head gone, Nasri swanning around, Jovetic permanently crocked, Zaba playing like an old man, Caballero, etc. Meanwhile Jason Denayer is ypoty for Celtic. Our defenci is playing like Keystone cops v Moscow, he is marshalling a vastly inferior set of players at the San Siro, down to ten men. Kompany gets sent off for Belgium, instead of putting Alderwerald or Vertonghen at cb, the coach debuts Denayer, who is shouting & organising them, again marshalling a ten man back 4.

What does Pellegrini do pre season ? Train him as part of the back 4 for the new campaign ? No, he sticks him next to a 16 year old kid, v Real madrid & that's his chance.

Now most of those players who were so shit last season, are being rewarded with a fresh start & Denayer, who had a better season than all of them, has been fucked off.

 

[malg]

£9m.....is that right? If so, then that's fucking good business.

 

[Neville Kneville]

The door has not been completely slammed shut. The current EDS lads will still get chances to train with the first team and if one or two catch Pellegrini's eye then the opportunity would still be there to be included in the match day squad.

I really hope so.