Attacks in Paris

[feedmpenzaandhewillscore]

That's very much Ealing's position. I assumed you shared it.

I don't purport to have all the answers, and I'm certianly not one of the nutters you highlight.

We are at the same train of thought, it's a conundrum we will still be debating in another 50 years time. Two sides of Islam grabbing what they can and fighting with each other whilst trying to lash out at the wider world who tries to get involved because of not being held to ransom over the price of oil.

This leaves people going to a concert, a football match and enjoying a meal in a restaurant dead. It's a sad sad day for humanity.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

Which comment? I am not one to not respond though I think my hours are a little different so I may have missed it last night.

The way I look at Islamists or extremists is that they represent what they are extremism , in this case a medieval interpretation with a touch of power politics and fascism using a literal interpretation as their basis . I don't credit them any more as being true Islam, than a plague rat on a ship being a sailor or a fox in a hen house being a chicken.

All religious texts if taken literally are a nonsense as the fact is they were not factual books as some pretend today but the writing down sometimes much later of an oral history based on story telling, where points were made with analogies, legend and exaggeration. Taking things literally is a dis-service to the people who wrote them let alone to the people today. Fact and fiction were always one and the same thing as one generation told stories to the next generation their past and few could read or write.

I read refugees are terrorists, in my mind they are not refugees at all but terrorists hiding amongst refugees, the refugees themselves intent on escaping that very terrorism. Like a Taliban disguised as a policeman to kill is not a policeman a terrorist pretending to be a refugee is still a terrorist.

But hit me with what I don't answer I will respond and please tell me where I espoused nuking people please

This one:

Moronic comparisons once more.

I'm not going to delve into all your comparisons but I'll go to the most common one which serves as a whataboutism when this discussion comes up - Northern Ireland.

Irish republicans backing the IRA in fighting a guerrilla war against British soldiers and bombing British cities weren't doing so because they were motivated by the life of warlord Jesus, or by something the Pope said. They did so because their goal was fundamentally to see a united Ireland free from British rule, and their view was that those acts of terrorism would force Britain to leave Ireland or to the negotiating table.

The sectarianism was a consequence of the old British settlers in Northern Ireland being native British, and thus Protestant. The native Irish Celts are Catholic, and thus your religious sect serves as an identifier of which group you belong to - the native Irish who want to see a united Ireland (Catholic), or the British settlers who want a Northern Ireland to remain part of Britain (Protestant).

It's that straightforward.

Of course said sectarianism added another poisonous layer to the conflict, but it wasn't a central tennant of why there was conflict and war. To suggest it was is dishonesty of the most contemptible kind.

It's a shit companion used by people who don't wish to reflect on the culpability of Islam in the ideology of people who are massacring civilians on European streets while praising their God - for example last night.

Of people who believe in martyrdom.

Of people that idolise a thousand year old warlord, believe him to be the messenger of their particular God, and deem him to be the perfect embodiment of humanity. And wish to emulate his very existence on earth in the present day - with no contextualising whatsoever.

Watch this video of AlNusra (IS lite) verbatim lift quotes from the Koran to teach children how to wage war against the infidel non believers, and tell me that Islam isn't a fundamental part of these attacks:



Of course not all Muslims interpret their faith this way, in fact most don't, but a lot do - and that's a fucking problem.

One that people like you could do with acknowledging.

No one cares what you deem to be 'true Islam' mate, IS certainly don't.

They have their interpretation, and it's a cornerstone of their ideology, of their crimes.

They directly quoted the Koran in their statement taking responsibility for the atrocity in Paris last night. Two verses of the Koran they directly quoted.

Religion is a central part of their ideology. That is a problem, and is something that needs to be reflected upon, rather than lazily dismissed.

- Our discussion never involved refugees. I just want you to stop glossing over the role religion plays in these attacks.

I never brought up nuking, that was feedmpenza. You misunderstood the exchange.

 

[RichardDunneOwnGoal]

Fair enough @feedmpenzaandhewillscore

 

[whp.blue]

By doing this, the terrorists are looking to cause divides between Muslim/non Muslim communities. We can't let that happen, don't give them the satisfaction of seeing countries like ourselves being torn apart. Times like this we need to stick together

That attitude has got us to where we are today and if we continue take this route we will never take the tough decisions to actually address the real problem.
Certain peoples interpretation of the Koran is what is causing divisions between Muslims and non-Muslims and if the country is ever torn apart intolerant religions will be the reason.

I will start to believe so called moderate Muslims more when they come out and openly denounce the parts of the koran that advocate intolerance of non believers until then they are just vacillating.

 

[abu13]

Kay Burley looks fucking rough these days.

 

[Blue Maverick]

Kay Burley looks fucking rough these days.

She's the new Kate Adie, you know things are fucked when she turns up, can't stand the woman.

 

[BimboBob]

What's this then?

Anarchy?

 

[George Hannah]

Atheists need to face up to the consequences of their convictions like everybody else - or perhaps they don't since they make their own rules. Chris Hitchens was a great man because he was honest about that crucial question. 'Atheist values are a contradiction in terms - there are no absolute values.'

Here's the thing about Atheist convictions: I don't need an imaginary friend in the sky to tell me it's wrong to murder, or steal, or assault people. I don't need the fear of hell or of divine retribution to behave like a civilised person.
As for there bing "no absolute values": what about the CoE's changed views on divorce and homosexuality? How absolute were those values?
Try these Hitchens quotes for size:
Name a moral statement or action, uttered or performed by a religious person that could not have been uttered or performed by an unbeliever. I am still waiting for a response to this. It carries an incidental corollary: think of a wicked action or statement that derived directly from religious faith, and you know what? There is no tongue-tied silence at THAT point. Everybody can instantly think of an example.
"Human decency is not derived from religion. It precedes it."

Of the many eloquent things Hitchens said in his defence of atheism you have managed to find two quotes one of which invites a logical impossibility followed by a corollary which is plainly wrong and the other a simple truism. You don't seem to recognise that your own value system has been shaped by your culture or that your familiar complaint that religious morality is merely prudential (however much the various religions may have wished that to be the case) is not borne out by the way folk have acted down the ages.
Referring to "imaginary friends in the sky " or people of faith only doing good because they are in fear of the torments of a medieval hell is highly disrespectful. It also, when continuously repeated on the internet, dangerously fuels the resentment of the secular perspective together with the aggressive materialist culture with which it is often associated, by the overwhelming majority of folk whose belief in God is woven into their way of life.

 

[Blumers Bloomers]

So I m reading the plan was for one of the bombers at Stade de France to gain entry into the ground (he was said to have a match ticket) , let off the bomb and then for fans those exiting the ground in the aftermath to run straight into the path of the second bomber

Sounds like the security guard who frisked him may have saved hundreds of lives ....unsure if he was killed in the explosion?

I hope off the back of these atrocities we start to see more security at the Etihad, frisk everyone on entry, may lead to longer queues outside the ground but just up to fans to get there earlier.

 

[Nascent Blues]

The Eiffel Tower being observed through a monocular?

 

[kinkysleftfoot]

Neither would legalising drugs, but the two would do a great deal to stop a great deal of murders in the world.

Humans will always be a power hungry species though. If we are a have-not we want what the haves have, or we want to fight them to stop exploiting us for what we have. Money, land, power.

I'm just watching the Kiwis doing the Haka in the rugby league, makes you think of the ethnic cleansing our own country's empire did in New Zealand. They say there are now no pure Maori people left. All in the name of exploitation of a country's resources.

And the Maori wiped out other races on neighbouring islands, it has been going on for centuries

 

[Ducado]

So I m reading the plan was for one of the bombers at Stade de France to gain entry into the ground (he was said to have a match ticket) , let off the bomb and then for fans those exiting the ground in the aftermath to run straight into the path of the second bomber

Sounds like the security guard who frisked him may have saved hundreds of lives ....unsure if he was killed in the explosion?

I hope off the back of these atrocities we start to see more security at the Etihad, frisk everyone on entry, may lead to longer queues outside the ground but just up to fans to get there earlier.

I am not sure that it would be entirely practical unless there was a particular threat

 

[George Hannah]

This is such an important point. The perceived contempt for Islam from the secular west is a source of great offence and contributes to the rise of extreme groups.

I'm sorry, but that is a nonsensical argument, and one that smacks of craven appeasement.
The vast majority of people born and raised in the west, have this contempt for what they see as a backward, misogynistic, homophobic
cult that fails to project it's more sane precepts to any significant degree. All of us live and work amongst muslims, we have friends and acquaintances
that are regular features of our lives, but, as these atrocities are not of their doing, we do not go out and murder them in reprisal.
What we do is censure and ridicule; moderate muslims except this, radical fruitcakes do not, but contempt for their religion is sacrosanct in my book,
and suggesting that we should moderate our true inner feelings to assuage the sensibilities of would be murderers is very dangerous indeed.

Earlier in this thread I posted a quote from Karen Armstrong directly addressing those with your point of view. Here it is again with apologies for those who have already seen it:

"After a bumpy beginning, secularism has undoubtedly been valuable to the west, but we would be wrong to regard it as a universal law. It emerged as a particular and unique feature of the historical process in Europe; it was an evolutionary adaptation to a very specific set of circumstances. In a different environment, modernity may well take other forms. Many secular thinkers now regard “religion” as inherently belligerent and intolerant, and an irrational, backward and violent “other” to the peaceable and humane liberal state – an attitude with an unfortunate echo of the colonialist view of indigenous peoples as hopelessly “primitive”, mired in their benighted religious beliefs. There are consequences to our failure to understand that our secularism, and its understanding of the role of religion, is exceptional. When secularisation has been applied by force, it has provoked a fundamentalist reaction – and history shows that fundamentalist movements which come under attack invariably grow even more extreme. The fruits of this error are on display across the Middle East: when we look with horror upon the travesty of Isis, we would be wise to acknowledge that its barbaric violence may be, at least in part, the offspring of policies guided by our disdain. "
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/sep/25/-sp-karen-armstrong-religious-violence-myth-secular

It is a sobering thought that without the creation of the internet Isis would probably not be the monster it is.

 

[urban genie]

So I m reading the plan was for one of the bombers at Stade de France to gain entry into the ground (he was said to have a match ticket) , let off the bomb and then for fans those exiting the ground in the aftermath to run straight into the path of the second bomber

Sounds like the security guard who frisked him may have saved hundreds of lives ....unsure if he was killed in the explosion?

I hope off the back of these atrocities we start to see more security at the Etihad, frisk everyone on entry, may lead to longer queues outside the ground but just up to fans to get there earlier.

Yeah the thing with a lot of stadiums though is they are in residential areas, you frisk someone at the turnstyle, but what if they are on the new road or city square ? We know they don't care who they kill so won't necessaryally stop them.

the difficulties in knowing their target is what makes them such a danger, we just can't let them stop us doing what we do out of fear.

 

[Blue Maverick]

So I m reading the plan was for one of the bombers at Stade de France to gain entry into the ground (he was said to have a match ticket) , let off the bomb and then for fans those exiting the ground in the aftermath to run straight into the path of the second bomber

Sounds like the security guard who frisked him may have saved hundreds of lives ....unsure if he was killed in the explosion?

I hope off the back of these atrocities we start to see more security at the Etihad, frisk everyone on entry, may lead to longer queues outside the ground but just up to fans to get there earlier.

Makes complete sense it's what terrorists ha e done for years, the IRA did it at Enniskillen, when I saw a clip of the supporters in the tunnel singing the anthem I thought it would have been ideal for a suicide bomber to be in there, complete carnage.
As for searching everyone going into the ethiad it's just not practical, and whether people like it or not profiling comes into it, that's the only way you an do it and keep some type of normality.

 

[TCIB]

http://isis.liveuamap.com/

May come in useful in the coming months.

 

[kippaxblue76]

So I m reading the plan was for one of the bombers at Stade de France to gain entry into the ground (he was said to have a match ticket) , let off the bomb and then for fans those exiting the ground in the aftermath to run straight into the path of the second bomber

Sounds like the security guard who frisked him may have saved hundreds of lives ....unsure if he was killed in the explosion?

I hope off the back of these atrocities we start to see more security at the Etihad, frisk everyone on entry, may lead to longer queues outside the ground but just up to fans to get there earlier.

This is exactly my thinking, everyone patted down and bags checked etc.

Everyone would feel much safer.

 

[morleyswife]

Why are there so many names? ISIS, IS, ISIL? The French ambassador said Deauc(totally incorrect spelling). Can blue moon come up with a true and fitting name for these cunts?

 

[kippaxblue76]

I am not sure that it would be entirely practical unless there was a particular threat

I am sure i read earlier on this thread that every sporting venue in the states have these measures in place.

 

[Ducado]

Why are there so many names? ISIS, IS, ISIL? The French ambassador said Deauc(totally incorrect spelling). Can blue moon come up with a true and fitting name for these cunts?

Desh is what the Arabs call them