EU referendum

[Metal Biker]

It would, as would TPP

Only if we sign up to it.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Only if we sign up to it.

No UK government would not sign up for it.
It would practically be selling the country down the river.
The countries signed up are not going to let a one off country come along and make their own terms up and decide to deals without very heavy tariffs or some kind of sanction,
It is the point of the two deals. Minimal paperwork and maximum profit within the clubs.

 

[Metal Biker]

No UK government would not sign up for it.
It would practically be selling the country down the river.
The countries signed up are not going to let a one off country come along and make their own terms up and decide to deals without very heavy tariffs or some kind of sanction,
It is the point of the two deals. Minimal paperwork and maximum profit within the clubs.

So we remain in the EU, are forcibly signed up to TTIP and the workers suffer.
We leave the EU, sign up to TPP and the workers suffer.
We leave the EU, DON'T sign up to either TTIP or TPP and....?

It's certainly a bizarre set of circumstances, isn't it. You'd think there'd be people out there enraged by it or something.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

So we remain in the EU, are forcibly signed up to TTIP and the workers suffer.
We leave the EU, sign up to TPP and the workers suffer.
We leave the EU, DON'T sign up to either TTIP or TPP and....?

It's certainly a bizarre set of circumstances, isn't it. You'd think there'd be people out there enraged by it or something.

and.... you think it is a positive outcome?

Welcome to the world of BRICs and lets see how many workers are left.

 

[Metal Biker]

and.... you think it is a positive outcome?

Welcome to the world of BRICs and lets see how many workers are left.

You came to that assumption, not me. I left it ambiguous for a reason.

No, I don't think it's a positive outcome, which is why i'm surprised any Inners would knowingly continue support being part of the EU when they are forcing through a trade agreement that most people across the 'Union' are opposed to. It smacks of hypocrisy.

 

[blueinsa]

Just under £10Million of taxpayer money being spent on government propaganda being sent out to us asking us to vote to stay in.

Thought we where skint? Why is that money not being spent on services?

That said, not a bad day to try and deflect from the growing anger with our PM and the rest over their offshore trust funds is it by throwing this news out?

 

[KenTheLandlord]

You came to that assumption, not me. I left it ambiguous for a reason.

No, I don't think it's a positive outcome, which is why i'm surprised any Inners would knowingly continue support being part of the EU when they are forcing through a trade agreement that most people across the 'Union' are opposed to. It smacks of hypocrisy.

Your last line didn't make it ambiguous.

That is one reason why the TTIP has not been passed yet, they are still negotiating and by negotiating things can and do change. Walking away will not change anything.

 

[Metal Biker]

Your last line didn't make it ambiguous.

That is one reason why the TTIP has not been passed yet, they are still negotiating and by negotiating things can and do change. Walking away will not change anything.

It was ambiguous, you didn't pick up on it. But again, as i've seen time and time again, the debate goes off track on petty discussion on what someone said, what someone didn't say.

TTIP hasn't been passed, but the EU is very keen to ensure it is. Inners defend the EU knowing full well this is the case. I cannot understand why.

 

[Moriati]

Obama’s proposed TTIP treaty with European countries has been so successfully hidden, that even the number of years it will be kept from the public isn’t yet known. Hello, international fascism — all in secret, until too late for the public to do anything.

But in Europe, things are being rushed, just in case secrecy breaks and the treaty fails to pass. The European Union is already secretly imposing provisions from the secret Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP) treaty, even before anyone has signed it, and even before it has been formally approved in any nation. This was revealed over the last weekend in two places:

On the night of October 17th, Phillip Inman of the online version of the Guardian bannered (in an article that the Guardian declined to publish in its printed edition), "Prospect of TTIP already undermining EU food standards, say campaigners,” and he reported that,

Nick Dearden, director of anti-poverty group Global Justice Now, says the EU’s chief trade counsellor, Damien Levie, has let slip that free trade means undermining current minimum standards agreed by the EU.

The release Thursday of the 5,544-page text of the Trans-Pacific Partnership—a trade and investment agreement involving 12 countries comprising nearly 40 percent of global output—confirms what even its most apocalyptic critics feared.

“The TPP, along with the WTO [World Trade Organization] and NAFTA [North American Free Trade Agreement], is the most brazen corporate power grab in American history,”Ralph Nader told me when I reached him by phone in Washington, D.C. “It allows corporations to bypass our three branches of government to impose enforceable sanctions by secret tribunals. These tribunals can declare our labor, consumer and environmental protections [to be] unlawful, non-tariff barriers subject to fines for noncompliance. The TPP establishes a transnational, autocratic system of enforceable governance in defiance of our domestic laws.”
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-10/his-own-words-why-obamatrade-right-thing-do-you-america

 

[grunge]

Just under £10Million of taxpayer money being spent on government propaganda being sent out to us asking us to vote to stay in.

That's raising an interesting point, I thought when they announced the referendum they said that an even spend from government money would be spent on both the in and out campaigning so there was a balanced debate.

That doesn't appear to be happening.

 

[AlgarveBlu]

Exit polls for the Dutch referendum tonight have a 63% NO vote and turn out is just above 30% to validate the result. The referendum was supposed to be on the Ukraine but is well accepted by both sides as a vote for or against Brussels....interesting times

 

[KenTheLandlord]

It was ambiguous, you didn't pick up on it. But again, as i've seen time and time again, the debate goes off track on petty discussion on what someone said, what someone didn't say.

TTIP hasn't been passed, but the EU is very keen to ensure it is. Inners defend the EU knowing full well this is the case. I cannot understand why.

There are 7 realistic scenarios for what happens next if the UK pulled out

1. The UK negotiates a treaty that provides a customised relationship with the EU.
2. The UK joins the European Economic Area (EEA)
3. The UK rejoins the European Free Trade Agreement (EFTA)
4. The UK follows the Swiss model
5. The UK negotiates a free trade agreement with the EU
6. The UK seeks a customs union with the EU, along the lines of the customs union between Turkey and the EU
7. The UK does not conclude any trade agreement with the EU and relies on WTO rules to manage trade with it

So which is it?

 

[Metal Biker]

There are 7 realistic scenarios for what happens next if the UK pulled out

1. The UK negotiates a treaty that provides a customised relationship with the EU.
2. The UK joins the European Economic Area (EEA)
3. The UK rejoins the European Free Trade Agreement (EFTA)
4. The UK follows the Swiss model
5. The UK negotiates a free trade agreement with the EU
6. The UK seeks a customs union with the EU, along the lines of the customs union between Turkey and the EU
7. The UK does not conclude any trade agreement with the EU and relies on WTO rules to manage trade with it

So which is it?

Which is what? Are you asking me now to divluge my personal preference, a viewpoint that in my opinion has no basis on the debate regarding the referendum itself? That will come after the nation has decided and we can all debate what direction the UK should take next.

It seems to me that what you want to do is drag me into a debate about how my choice would be 'wrong', and once I tell you which scenario i'd prefer to see the UK follow, I can already sense you'll wish to debate on how 'wrong' it is in order to stifle the debate; not because it is in any way illogical or unrealistic, but because you yourself personally disagree with that action. All you need to know is that my preferred action for this country to undertake in the wake of an exit from the EU may nor may not be one you have listed. My choice is my choice and you don't need to know it unless you wish to give your own choice first, given that you're placed in the scenario that the leave campaign actually succeeded, so that I can have an understanding as to the type of debate we might have. In other words, if you yourself do not agree with any of these scenarios you listed or how they could work to the UK's benefit, it's pointless asking me to choose one of them, isn't it.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Which is what? Are you asking me now to divluge my personal preference, a viewpoint that in my opinion has no basis on the debate regarding the referendum itself? That will come after the nation has decided and we can all debate what direction the UK should take next.

It seems to me that what you want to do is drag me into a debate about how my choice would be 'wrong', and once I tell you which scenario i'd prefer to see the UK follow, I can already sense you'll wish to debate on how 'wrong' it is in order to stifle the debate; not because it is in any way illogical or unrealistic, but because you yourself personally disagree with that action. All you need to know is that my preferred action for this country to undertake in the wake of an exit from the EU may nor may not be one you have listed. My choice is my choice and you don't need to know it unless you wish to give your own choice first, given that you're placed in the scenario that the leave campaign actually succeeded, so that I can have an understanding as to the type of debate we might have. In other words, if you yourself do not agree with any of these scenarios you listed or how they could work to the UK's benefit, it's pointless asking me to choose one of them, isn't it.

Amazing.
Well, we have had a lot "info" and comment about how staying in is not a good idea as the EU is a tinpot dictatorship that tramples the UK underfoot so i thought ok, lets ask an outer what would happen next. There are 7 different scenarios and i thought it would be interesting to see which would be the one (as clearly all 7 cannot be chosen) pursued. I wanted to know what was on offer or even which were considered more suitable than another before i decide to stay or go.
Instead there is a paranoid rant about how i am trying to catch you out.
Seriously, is that it? Is that the answer. You have melted on the first question. I really honestly could not give a fuck what your private intentions are. You like me are just one vote. It would have been at least reasonably interesting to see at least which line of thought is likely but no. Seems you are happy to chip away but cannot put up as you feel it would just be stifling the debate. it IS a debate and ALL angles are covered.

So, if i am to vote out what would line of thinking would i be getting myself into if the outers won?

 

[Metal Biker]

Amazing.
Well, we have had a lot "info" and comment about how staying in is not a good idea as the EU is a tinpot dictatorship that tramples the UK underfoot so i thought ok, lets ask an outer what would happen next. There are 7 different scenarios and i thought it would be interesting to see which would be the one (as clearly all 7 cannot be chosen) pursued. I wanted to know what was on offer or even which were considered more suitable than another before i decide to stay or go.
Instead there is a paranoid rant about how i am trying to catch you out.
Seriously, is that it? Is that the answer. You have melted on the first question. I really honestly could not give a fuck what your private intentions are. You like me are just one vote. It would have been at least reasonably interesting to see at least which line of thought is likely but no. Seems you are happy to chip away but cannot put up as you feel it would just be stifling the debate. it IS a debate and ALL angles are covered.

So, if i am to vote out what would line of thinking would i be getting myself into if the outers won?

An expected answer from you. Aggressive, insulting, a tone of ridicule. You didn't get the response you wanted so you go 'on the attack'. It tends to be your method of 'engaging' with posters on here.
I tend not to engage with someone so obviously close minded.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

An expected answer from you. Aggressive, insulting, a tone of ridicule. It tends to be your method of 'engaging' with posters on here.
I tend not to engage with someone so obviously close minded.

So i ask what next, you dont (or cant) answer and its me who is closed minded. Lol.
I asked a perfectly good question, you came back with a defensive and paranoid answer.
I will ask a third time, which course of action do you think would be likely if the outers won?

 

[Metal Biker]

So i ask what next, you dont (or cant) answer and its me who is closed minded. Lol.
I asked a perfectly good question, you came back with a defensive and paranoid answer.
I will ask a third time, which course of action do you think would be likely if the outers won?

More 'won't' than don't or can't.

I asked you the same question, and yet i'm still waiting for your response. Divulge me.

As stated it is pointless asking at this point in time as we don't know the EU's response to an exit. I have my preferred scenario, but that could easily change given the reaction or stubborness of the EU. So for me to say for example "Option C", you could come back and drone on and on about how 'unrealistic' such a belief would be. I might agree that, under certain aspects of a Brexit, "option C" might not be feasible and therefore would choose another option. Cue the accusations of 'flip-flopping' you tend to accuse others of if they dare to change their mind. Because you know best, right.

 

[KenTheLandlord]

More 'won't' that don't or can't.

I asked you the same question, and yet i'm still waiting for your response. Divulge me.

As stated it is pointless asking at this point in time as we don't know the EU's response to an exit. I have my preferred scenario, but that could easily change given the reaction or stubborness of the EU.

So, to use an analogy, you have been telling me my back garden is not green enough, your back garden is greener but i cannot see your back garden. You tell me repeatedly that mine is shit but i am generally happy with it. I ask you then, ok, i know there are 7 products that could make my back garden better i doubt it but i am listening, so i ask you. You now say you wont tell me as you are not sure and things could change. You see why i am suspicious. You sound like an ITK upstairs that tells me he knows what is happening but you know, things change and it could be anything.
If i vote out, want to know exactly what is coming next.

 

[RandomJ]

Just under £10Million of taxpayer money being spent on government propaganda being sent out to us asking us to vote to stay in.

Thought we where skint? Why is that money not being spent on services?

That said, not a bad day to try and deflect from the growing anger with our PM and the rest over their offshore trust funds is it by throwing this news out?

Yeah sorry disabled people the pot is empty so tough shit. Oh hang on we found £9 million down the sofa, lets make some leaflets.

 

[Metal Biker]

So, to use an analogy, you have been telling me my back garden is not green enough, your back garden is greener but i cannot see your back garden. You tell me repeatedly that mine is shit but i am generally happy with it. I ask you then, ok, i know there are 7 products that could make my back garden better i doubt it but i am listening, so i ask you. You now say you wont tell me as you are not sure and things could change. You see why i am suspicious. You sound like an ITK upstairs that tells me he knows what is happening but you know, things change and it could be anything.
If i vote out, want to know exactly what is coming next.

What on earth are you blabbering about? Gardens? Products? ITK?

Plain english please, no analogies.