EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%
  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%

  • Total voters
    1,050
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I never mentioned the wto I was replying to your very important point about the cost of a phone call to Athens. You were giving credit to the eu for this and I was saying it must be terrible for all the other countries in the world dealing with these terrible companies. I am sure the presidents and prime ministers of the countries I listed are worried sick about this dilemma and clueless about what to do without the Eu...

As you were Ken.....

I see, so you didn't bother with the first line which clearly mentioned the WTO but decided to concentrate on the quick example halfway down.

As we are in the EU and they aint, like your post, pretty irrelevant really.
 
It's certainly strange, I get the same answers, from Labour and Tory alike; at 1/6 though, maybe it's predominantly southerners, who we
don't generally get to speak to, but the weight of betting seems massively towards remain.


I live down south - lots (certainly the majority) of people I speak to say they are voting leave. I hear people saying it must be the northern areas of the country that are so pro-remain.

1/6 does seem to be conclusive though. Perhaps the remain vote will get complacent and people will not bother getting out to vote. The leave voters should absolutely make sure that they vote and between now and voting day make sure they talk sense into at least one other person.
 
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Maybe people just take the BOE, Treasury, IMF, IFFS, US Government word rather than Boris, Farage and Britain First.

I honestly haven't met one person who's confirmed they're voting to remain, not one.

There's a few who are undecided but every other to a man or woman is voting out.

Not sure where the remain get their confidence from going off what i hear and see around me tbh.
 
If the EAW is news to many if have to really question what the fuck do people do about the world they live in.

If the video is saying that no evidence is required, it merely supports my view that Ukip talk utter utter shite and is why i switch off when one of the muppets begins yapping.

As someone who would be regarded as left as left can get, mind on here that would put me centre right on the political spectrum, the Euro one sits ok with me, the one the UK and US has does not.
The Euro one has plenty of safeguards in place. including double criminality.

Double criminality is a feature of international extradition law by which states may refuse to extradite fugitives if the conduct which is alleged to have constituted a criminal offence in the state requesting extradition would not have resulted in the commission of a criminal offence in the state being asked to effect the extradition.

Under the EAW Framework Decision, the requirement for double criminality is removed for a wide range of categories of crimes, and made a discretionary rather than a compulsory ground for a refusal to extradite for offences not falling within those categories.

The categories within which are as follows:

Arson,
Computer-related crime,
Corruption,
Counterfeiting currency,
Counterfeiting and piracy of products,
Crimes within the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court,
Environmental crime, including illicit trafficking in endangered animal species and in endangered plant species and varieties,
Facilitation of unauthorised entry and residence,
Forgery of means of payment,
Forgery of administrative documents and trafficking therein,
Fraud, including fraud affecting the financial interests of the European Union,
Illicit trade in human organs and tissue,
Illicit trafficking in cultural goods, including antiques and works of art,
Illicit trafficking in hormonal substances and other growth promoters,
Illicit trafficking in narcotic drugs and psychotropic substances,
Illicit trafficking in nuclear or radioactive materials,
Illicit trafficking in weapons, munitions and explosives,
Kidnapping, illegal restraint and hostage-taking,
Laundering of the proceeds of crime,
Murder, grievous bodily injury,
Organised or armed robbery,
Participation in a criminal organisation,
Racism and xenophobia,
Rape,
Racketeering and extortion,
Sabotage
Sexual exploitation of children and child pornography,
Swindling,
Terrorism,
Trafficking in human beings,
Trafficking in stolen vehicles,
Unlawful seizure of aircraft or ships.

Prior to the adoption of the EAW Framework Decision in 2002, 11 of the then 15 member states — namely Austria, Belgium, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Luxembourg, Portugal and Sweden — had domestic rules which prevented the extradition of their nationals. Which i assume you will be happy about as it now means if a Belgian nips over here and rapes someone, they can be sent back over here, something which could not be done before.

Also,there are plenty of grounds for the refusal to exercise the warrant.

The EAW Framework Decision sets out the reasons by which the executing judicial authority must or may refuse to surrender a person subject to an arrest warrant. Many member states have enacted other reasons by which surrender may be refused which are not referred to in the Framework Decision.

Mandatory grounds under the Framework Decision
Under the Framework Decision the executing judicial authority must refuse to surrender the requested person if:

  • The alleged offence comes under the jurisdiction of the courts of the executing state and is the subject of an amnesty there,
  • The requested person has been acquitted in a member state of the European Union of an offence in respect of the same acts as contained in the arrest warrant, or was convicted of that offence and has served the sentence imposed (if any) for that offence, or
  • The requested person is below the age of criminal responsibility in the executing state.
Optional grounds under the Framework Decision
Under the Framework Decision the executing judicial authority may refuse to surrender the requested person if:

  • The requested person is being prosecuted in the executing member state for the same act,
  • The prosecutorial authorities in the executing state decided not to prosecute the requested person, or having begun such a prosecution halted it,
  • The requested person was being prosecuted in the executing member state, that case having progressed to final judgement,
  • The act on which the EAW is based comes under the jurisdiction of the executing member state and would be statute barred there,
  • The requested person was prosecuted in a third country, the final judgement having been made, provided that the sentence in respect of the offence (if one was imposed) had been served or may no longer be executed under the laws of the third country,
  • The offence was committed or alleged to have been committed in the territory of the executing state, or
  • The offence was committed or alleged to have been committed other than in the territory of the issuing state and the law executing state would not allow for the prosecution of the same offence if committed outside its territory.
Trials in absentia
In 2009 the Council of Ministers amended the EAW framework decision with the express intention of "enhancing the procedural rights of persons and fostering the application of the principle of mutual recognition to decisions rendered in the absence of the person concerned at the trial". Under the 2009 framework decision an executing judicial authority may refuse to execute a European Arrest Warrant unless the requested person:

  • Was summoned in person and knowing the time and place of the trial in due time and that judgement might be made against him or her if he or she failed to attend, failed to attend,
  • Was not summoned in person but it being unequivocally established that he or she was aware of the time and place of the trial in due time and that judgement might be made against him or her if he or she failed to attend, failed to attend,
  • Knowing that a trial was scheduled, had instructed lawyers to defend the case, who duly did so,
  • Was served with the judgement and told of his or her right to a retrial or appeal de novo, decided not to contest the judgement or failed to request such a retrial or appeal within the applicable time limit, or
  • May request a retrial or make a de novo appeal upon his or her surrender.
The 2009 Framework Decision should have been implemented by member states by 28 March 2011.

Human rights
Article 3 of the Framework Decision which lists grounds upon which executing states must refuse to surrender a requested person does not expressly include any ground for refusing the surrender of a requested person if that surrender would infringe a person's human rights. However recitals (12) and (13) of the preamble and Article 1(3) do refer to human rights:

Recital (12)
"This Framework Decision respects fundamental rights and observes the principles recognised by Article 6 of the Treaty on European Union and reflected in the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union, in particular Chapter VI thereof. Nothing in this Framework Decision may be interpreted as prohibiting refusal to surrender a person for whom a European arrest warrant has been issued when there are reasons to believe, on the basis of objective elements, that the said arrest warrant has been issued for the purpose of prosecuting or punishing a person on the grounds of his or her sex, race, religion, ethnic origin, nationality, language, political opinions or sexual orientation, or that that person's position may be prejudiced for any of these reasons.
This Framework Decision does not prevent a Member State from applying its constitutional rules relating to due process, freedom of association, freedom of the press and freedom of expression in other media."
Recital (13)
"No person should be removed, expelled or extradited to a State where there is a serious risk that he or she would be subjected to the death penalty, torture or other inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."
Article 1(3)
"This Framework Decision shall not have the effect of modifying the obligation to respect fundamental rights and fundamental legal principles as enshrined in Article 6 of the Treaty on European Union."
In 2006, 20 of the then 25 member states included text which was based on at least one of these provisions or which explicitly referred to the European Convention on Human Rights, in their domestic implementing legislation. The others took the view that the rights exist independently from the Framework Decision.

Conditional surrender

The Framework Decision also establishes the possibility for executing member states to request certain guarantees from issuing states prior to ordering the surrender of a requested person. Whether and how member states require such guarantees depends on the law of the member state in question.

  • Where a requested person is liable on conviction to life imprisonment, the executing state may make the surrender subject to the requested person having the legal right to apply for parole after having served twenty years.
  • Where a requested person is a national or a resident of the executing state, the executing state may make the surrender subject to the requested person being returned to the executing state to serve any prison sentence ultimately imposed.

Then there is

Procedure

Issuing judicial authority
A European Arrest Warrant may only be issued by the competent judicial authority in an EU member state or a state with a special agreement with the EU. The issuing judicial authority must complete a form stating identity and nationality of the person sought, the nature and legal classification of the offence, the circumstances surrounding the alleged committal of the offence including when and where it was committed and the degree of participation of the person sought, and scale of penalties for the offence.

Many member states have designated public prosecutors as their judicial authorities for the purposes of the framework decision. Such designations have been questioned before the British and Irish courts on the basis that in order for an authority to be judicial it should be a court or judge. In both states the designated issuing authority is a judge. However the courts of each have rejected these arguments. In Assange v Swedish Prosecution Authority the English High Court found that:

"it cannot be said that the term judicial applies only to a judge who adjudicates. The differing European traditions recognise that others, including prosecutors, can be included within that term for various purposes. It is therefore entirely consistent with the principles of mutual recognition and mutual confidence to recognise as valid an EAW issued by a prosecuting authority designated under Article 6. To do otherwise would be to construe the word 'judicial' out of context and look at it simply through the eyes of a common law judge, who would not consider a prosecutor as having a judicial position or acting as a judicial authority."
On appeal, the Supreme affirmed the decision of the High Court and found that, when comparing different language versions, the framework decision demonstrated an intention to regard public prosecutors as judicial authorities and that the conduct of the member states since its enactment confirmed this interpretation.

Transmission
Unlike traditional extradition arrangements, EAWs need not be transmitted to any particular state. The intent of the Framework Decision is that EAWs be immediately recognised by all member states once issued. When a person the subject of an EAW is found within the jurisdiction of a member state and arrested, that member state is required by the Framework Decision to execute the warrant.

If the whereabouts of the person sought are known, the EAW may be transmitted directly to the designated central authority of that member state. Otherwise the issuing judicial authority may seek the assistance of the European Judicial Network in circulating the warrant, may seek to issue an alert under the Schengen Information System, or may seek the services of Interpol.

Minimum threshold
The EAW Framework Decision requires that a warrant can only be issued when an offence is punishable by imprisonment or a detention order for a maximum period of at least one year, or in conviction cases, where the remaining term of imprisonment is four months or more. This can nonetheless include a wide variety of trivial offences. In 2007, a report commissioned by the Presidency of the Council of Ministers noted that EAWs had been issued for such offences as possession of 0.45 grams of cannabis, possession of 3 ecstasy tablets, theft of two car tyres, driving under the influence of alcohol where the limit was not significantly exceeded and theft of a piglet. The report concluded that it would be appropriate to have a discussion at EU level on the proportionate issuance of European Arrest Warrants.

Arrest
While the manner in which the arrest of a person the subject of an EAW is not specified in the Framework Decision, once arrested, he or she has the right to be informed of the warrant, its contents, and the person's right to consent to his or her surrender to the member state that issued the warrant. The Framework Decision also provides that the requested person have the right to the assistance of legal counsel and to an interpreter "in accordance with the national law of the executing Member State.

Time limits
The Framework Decision prescribes time limits for the making of a final decision to a surrender request. Where a requested person consents to his or her surrender, the executing judicial authority should make a final decision within ten days of such a consent. Where a requested person refuses to consent to his or her surrender, the executing judicial authority should make a final decision within 60 days of the arrest. In 2011 the European Commission reported that the average time for the surrender of persons who consented was 16 days while the average time for those who did not consent was 48.6 days

Is it perfect? Probably not as shown below, but then again the exceptions are probably what Ukip are using, to try and illustrate as examples of the status quo, to back up their babbling.

To give balance
Fair Trials International (FTI), the London-based human rights non-governmental organisation, claims to have highlighted a number of cases which demonstrate that the European Arrest Warrant system is causing serious injustice and jeopardising the right to a fair trial. In particular, FTI allege that:

  • European Arrest Warrants have been issued many years after the alleged offence was committed.
  • Once warrants have been issued there is no effective way of removing them, even after extradition has been refused.
  • They have been used to send people to another EU member state to serve a prison sentence resulting from an unfair trial.
  • Warrants have been used to force a person to face trial when the charges are based on evidence obtained by police brutality.
  • Sometimes people surrendered under an Arrest Warrant have to spend months or even years in detention before they can appear in court to establish their innocence.
Blimey, you type quick Ken.... 80).

A couple of points though if you don't mind.

1. It should not suprise you if you learn that not everyone can be an expert in everything all the time. From understanding economics and believing all the information espoused by Cameron and co, to understanding theintracacies of EU law.

2. Do you not think your arguement could be better placed by learning what it is your arguing against by watching the video? I'm sure your points are more than valid but they are not addressing the direct issues raised.

Have you the link from where thus was cut and pasted?
 
I honestly haven't met one person who's confirmed they're voting to remain, not one.

There's a few who are undecided but every other to a man or woman is voting out.

Not sure where the remain get their confidence from going off what i hear and see around me tbh.


The remainers get shouted down. Why debate with people who are obsessed with migration and getting ''our country back''

They know economically we'll be screwed, they feel be better to remain in Europe and reform. these people dont shout from the roof tops though.
 
The remainers get shouted down. Why debate with people who are obsessed with migration and getting ''our country back''

They know economically we'll be screwed, they feel be better to remain in Europe and reform. these people dont shout from the roof tops though.

I think that is right outers tend to be more passionate and vociferous so it can so a lot of inners are quiet.

However a lot of people don't like saying they vote ukip or Tory publicly as being right wing is not cool, but in the privacy of that electoral booth....
 
The remainers get shouted down. Why debate with people who are obsessed with migration and getting ''our country back''

They know economically we'll be screwed, they feel be better to remain in Europe and reform. these people dont shout from the roof tops though.

Sorry mate but you're talking Bollocks, the remainers don't get shouted down, opinions have been asked and all bar a few who are undecided say out.

No one knows if the economy will be screwed or not by leaving, and last time i checked, the economy got screwed while we were still in the EU so that didn't prevent fuck all.

The economies of Greece, Spain, Ireland, Portugal and now Italy have all been screwed or are screwed while we've been in the EU so being in hasn't helped them one iota, plus bailing them out has put strain on other economies, facts are some countries would be better off out of it all and i personally think so will we and that we'll be voting out.
 
Are we big enough to stand against Russian/China/US as 28 small countries = NO as a united Europe = Maybe.

We cant control our boarders anyway. We would never pass a system like Australia so would be a mute point. So whilst i think immigration is a major issue i dont think this will change if we leave.

The risks of an economic down turn are too high to risk for what we would get back. Europe is a shit system, but democracy is a shit system. But its the best of a bad choice
 
They know economically we'll be screwed, they feel be better to remain in Europe and reform

They "know" no such thing, they are being told the economy will suffer if we dont do as the powers that be want, if you dont "know" that politicians use fear as the number one tool to get their way you are hard of thinking.

We have seen the chances of getting any kind of reforms when call me dave went begging, did he tell them unless we got some there was a danger of a war if we left ?, did he point out that our poor little economy would crash dragging the rest of the world into financial meltdown ?.

How on gods earth can a vote to "Remain" be just that when the EU has a stated aim to change into a full federal state, is far from stable, and in decline from a trade point of view since 1999.
 
The remainers get shouted down. Why debate with people who are obsessed with migration and getting ''our country back''

They know economically we'll be screwed, they feel be better to remain in Europe and reform. these people dont shout from the roof tops though.
They keep their mouths shut because they know they're putting being a few quid a week better off ahead of major issues like sovereignty and democracy and probably find it a difficult position to justify. They've swallowed our dodgy Prime Minister and slimeball Chancellor's propoganda hook, line and sinker, and probably don't like admitting it. In a few years time when it becomes clear reform isn't on the agenda and never was and our contributions continue to rise because of the problems of the Euro and further expansion to the East, and immigration continues to rise putting further pressure on services and downward pressure on wages, they'll realise they've been conned. With the threat of a UK referendum gone, we'll be in a weaker position than ever and will just have to take whatever is coming our way without complaint, because the referendum result will be thrown back in our faces at every opportunity by the federalists, and it will be left to another nation somewhere to gow some balls and say enough is enough.
 
Are we big enough to stand against Russian/China/US as 28 small countries = NO as a united Europe = Maybe.

We cant control our boarders anyway. We would never pass a system like Australia so would be a mute point. So whilst i think immigration is a major issue i dont think this will change if we leave.

The risks of an economic down turn are too high to risk for what we would get back. Europe is a shit system, but democracy is a shit system. But its the best of a bad choice

So you think Europe is shit but want to stay in??

You can change things here in time, in the EU, no chance and as for risks, voting in is the biggest risk of all as who knows what the EU will be like in another 10 years, if the past 40 are anything to go off we'll all be well and truly fucked.
 
Are we big enough to stand against Russian/China/US as 28 small countries = NO as a united Europe = Maybe.

We cant control our boarders anyway. We would never pass a system like Australia so would be a mute point. So whilst i think immigration is a major issue i dont think this will change if we leave.

The risks of an economic down turn are too high to risk for what we would get back. Europe is a shit system, but democracy is a shit system. But its the best of a bad choice


Why do 'we' need to stand against Russia/China ?

What have Russia and China done to us ?
 
There was one of those hitler vids about the Eu referendum which is funny . You know the one with the subtitles I know it's a bit old hat and always done but the one I saw was quite funny and some light relief for those who get excited on this thread. I am sure you can see it on YouTube or if someone under 40 is able to stick it on this it is worth a watch....
 
So you think Europe is shit but want to stay in??

You can change things here in time, in the EU, no chance and as for risks, voting in is the biggest risk of all as who knows what the EU will be like in another 10 years, if the past 40 are anything to go off we'll all be well and truly fucked.

No one was moaning about Europe 35 of those years.. we have had peace and no major wars - yes you can point at Bosnia etc, but relatively Europe has been stable and united.
 
My mind has been made up entirely by the posters on here who want us to remain. Natuarally I'm going to vote to leave..
 
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