EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%
  • Total voters
    1,050
Status
Not open for further replies.
Doesn't it tell you everything when the remain side like Tim when trying to think of 5 great things the EU have done for us come up with nonsense like European peace, NATO anyone? and cheaper phone tariffs; who gives a shit.

What price democracy and sovereignty?

The real possibility that in a few short years through the mantra of "ever closer union" our troops, taxes, immigration policy, laws,trade agreements, economic strategy and currency, ie everything that effects our daily lives and life chances,will be decided by a small group of unelected, unaccountable, faceless megalomaniacs terrifies me.
 
What about getting a toddlers ears pierced?
For anyone who doubts there is a federal EU 'project', google future force 2020 - a defence review that apparently hasn't even happened yet. Then google 'French military victories' and see if you have any concerns.
 
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Paul_Powers_Tash said:
Doesn't it tell you everything when the remain side like Tim when trying to think of 5 great things the EU have done for us come up with nonsense like European peace, NATO anyone? and cheaper phone tariffs; who gives a shit.

What price democracy and sovereignty?

The real possibility that in a few short years through the mantra of "ever closer union" our troops, taxes, immigration policy, laws,trade agreements, economic strategy and currency, ie everything that effects our daily lives and life chances,will be decided by a small group of unelected, unaccountable, faceless megalomaniacs terrifies me.
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So you come up with a post without any benefits of leaving the EU lol!

If you don't think peace is an important matter, I'm not sure I would be impressed with your priorities. When has NATO had to intervene to protect us btw? )and I've said NATO has an important role too).
 
Tim of the Oak said:
We didn't need to join the ECSC. Germany attacked France in both World Wars and we fought alongside France. The important point is the alliance between France and Germany.

1. The Equal Pay Act in the UK was a poor imitation of the stronger interpretations from the ECJ that referred back to the Treaty of Rome to decide on intentions. I could write you essays on this but don't want to bore the rest of Bluemoon to death. Look at the Enderby Case for further info.

2. NATO was formed in the late 40s, Franco's atrocities against the Spanish people continued well into the 50s. The crimes had an impact beyond the Spanish borders. So the Hundreds of thousands oof civilian victims of the Spanish Civil War (and following years of persecution) weren't impirtant because Hitler only helped to bomb them. He don't need to invade because he had an ally in Franco.

3 So you tried to mock me about European phone charges when I just said this was a benefit the EU had brought. No this hasn't stopped any wars lol. That said if mobiles had been about and Kaiser Wilhelm had rang his cousin George before attacking France (to clarify whether Britain would enter the War) the First World War might not have happened and the post war depression in Germany that les to Hitler's rise might not have happened!

In summary, you are looking a little bit silly misrepresenting my points lol!
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The ECSC had nothing to do with peace in Europe. It was about rebuilding both nations after the war, making costs easier. There is no comparison with an alliance with a nation during wartime and signing a treaty whose sole purpose was to prevent further antagonisations between France and Germany. It especially did not do anything to bring about peace in the UK, which is kind of the point here.

1. Poor or not (your opinion), it was the first act passed in British Parliament declaring equal pay and rights for men and women in the UK. The EU didn't introduce anything similar until 2003, a full 30 years after we'd been a member.

2. NATO was formed, but didn't become an active peace organisation until the mid 50's. NATO is not responsible for the continued atrocities in Spain and again, even it it were responsible for the peace, Spain didn't become a member until 1982, 7 years AFTER the Franco regime ended. For example in my view, the EU did NOTHING to stop Napoleon. Stupid, non? NATO is simply an agreement which states "one attacked, ALL attacked". It's not a governing body or authoritarian organisation enforcing peace. That's why there's the United Nations (for all the good its worth). So NATO's goal may not be to enforce peace, but my word it's been a startling effective side effect.

3. I asked you to give me examples on how the EU has kept peace in Europe WITHOUT the aid or assistance of NATO. You said free mobile phone roaming charges. The ridicule was justified. I'm not even going to address your point about Kaiser Wilhelm (its just too stupid). Instead, here's something to keep you occupied.
tumblr_mvg6t3TnPO1sig9gio1_400.gif
 
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Tim of the Oak said:
So you come up with a post without any benefits of leaving the EU lol!

If you don't think peace is an important matter, I'm not sure I would be impressed with your priorities. When has NATO had to intervene to protect us btw? )and I've said NATO has an important role too).
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How many times did Russia attack directly a NATO member during the Cold War?
Name any European country that attacked another NATO member?

NATO didn't have to intervene because everyone knew what would happen if they did attack a NATO country. Britain, France, Germany oh and the US with 8,000+ nukes would have done something about it. Nobody's that crazy.
 
bluethrunthru said:
I think it will be a fairly narrow IN - say 45% Brexit 55% Remain - then we sit back and watch the Tory party meltdown.

Alternatively its a narrow OUT 45% Remain 55% Brexit - then we sit back and watch the Tory party meltdown.

Either way Call Me Dave - whom some would have as the consummate political operator has dropped a fucking huge bollock with this - backed into a corner by a none existent UKIP threat. Him and his "advisors" never calculated the number of votes expressed as seats - panicked and promised the vote thus sealing his own political demise.
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Any "Out" vote, will cause Tory party meltdown. I reckon 55% Remain might keep Cameron in his job. There would probably be a leadership challenge but it wold likely be a stalking horse challenger. I would be surprised if Johnson threw his hat in the ring. The risk for him would be that the less rabid Leave MPs would decide to put the referendum behind them and vote for party unity. He would probably wait until Cameron agrees to step down in 2018.
 
Helmet Cole said:
What about getting a toddlers ears pierced?
For anyone who doubts there is a federal EU 'project', google future force 2020 - a defence review that apparently hasn't even happened yet. Then google 'French military victories' and see if you have any concerns.
Click to expand...
Hahaha......very good.
 
Heard Pienaar's Politics on 5Live yesterday, and the Tories are in meltdown over this. However, accordong to their guy on there yesterday, and no one really argued the point, Labour are so poorly lead that the Conservatives don't care about in fighting as they believe they are government and opposition right now. They interviewed some Conservative MP in a cafe, and my life he absolutely slated Cameron over his handling of the referendum.

Politics are going to be interesting after this vote. I'm kind of wondering if Corbyn is allowing the Tories to rip themselves apart over this referendum and then he'll step into the void, or if he just isn't capable of taking advantage now. I think he's just told his team to let the Conservatives self implode, then go for broke and press for an early General Election?
 
Malty said:
Where abouts in Manc did you vote mate?

I'm voting out so no fecker can change my mind.

I think the "silent majority" will surprise a few. In public yeah we are diplomatic but in a private booth we want our borders back ! no more immigration or atleast more controlled on our terms. No free open borders.
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A couple of points on the immigration issue.

Firstly, the leave campaign have made a great play about the UK being able to negotiate a trade deal with the EU if we left and cite Norway as a country that's done exactly that. This is perfectly true but what they neglect to mention is that to get this trade deal Norway had to agree to unlimited immigration from any and all EU countries. So in terms of immigration from the EU we'd be in exactly the same situation as we are now except we'd be on the outside looking in.

Secondly, the situation in the 'Jungle' in Calais is that, as part of cross border co-operation within the EU, the French authorities are committed to do their best to prevent these people (and any others) from illegal access to the UK. There is also a British police presence in Calais to monitor the situation and co-operate with the French. Calais is therefore effectively our border. If we leave the EU the French police will wash their hands of the migrant issue in Calais and no longer prevent anyone from attempting to enter the UK illegally as it would no longer be either their problem or their resonsibility. The British police contingent would also have to be withdrawn. This would mean open season for illegal migrants and the couple of recent instances of boats full of them caught crossing the Channel would increase exponentially and northern France would become a magnet for many more migrants trying to enter the UK illegally.

To the best of my knowledge no-one in the leave campaign has had the guts to point any of this out among all the guff about "regaining control of our borders". The reality is rather different.
 
malg said:
Heard Pienaar's Politics on 5Live yesterday, and the Tories are in meltdown over this. However, accordong to their guy on there yesterday, and no one really argued the point, Labour are so poorly lead that the Conservatives don't care about in fighting as they believe they are government and opposition right now. They interviewed some Conservative MP in a cafe, and my life he absolutely slated Cameron over his handling of the referendum.

Politics are going to be interesting after this vote. I'm kind of wondering if Corbyn is allowing the Tories to rip themselves apart over this referendum and then he'll step into the void, or if he just isn't capable of taking advantage now. I think he's just told his team to let the Conservatives self implode, then go for broke and press for an early General Election?
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It doesn't really make sense for the Brexit tories to oust Cameron in he wins the referendum, even narrowly. Their only chance of another referendum in the future, say if Turkey does actually join the EU or there is further treaty change, would be if a tory pm granted them one. Ousting Cameron isn't really going to encourage a future tory pm to do that.

My guess is that the main tory Leavers such as Johnson & Gove will stay well clear of any attempt to kick Cameron out. They'll wait until he steps down in 2018.
 
malg said:
Hahaha......very good.
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They got rid of the last English King with a victory at Hastings, it's fair to say that Edward 1 , Richard 1 etc were French and them napoleon was probably the best military commander Europe has seen but let's not spoil a good story.

I am still wondering with unemployment dropping again and an ageing population exactly what will happen if the tap is turned off?
 
cibaman said:
It doesn't really make sense for the Brexit tories to oust Cameron in he wins the referendum, even narrowly. Their only chance of another referendum in the future, say if Turkey does actually join the EU or there is further treaty change, would be if a tory pm granted them one. Ousting Cameron isn't really going to encourage a future tory pm to do that.

My guess is that the main tory Leavers such as Johnson & Gove will stay well clear of any attempt to kick Cameron out. They'll wait until he steps down in 2018.
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You assume rationality, there will come a point where lines are crossed and the rational become irrational. Frankly if I were Boris or George I wouldn't want to be anywhere near the leadership for quite a time after the vote as there will be poison and best to let Cameron deal with that and be killed by it than take on the job at the worst time. It will be a true test as to whether they have the ability and sense to hold their let ambition and ego in check till the right time to take over.
 
EalingBlue2 said:
They got rid of the last English King with a victory at Hastings, it's fair to say that Edward 1 , Richard 1 etc were French and them napoleon was probably the best military commander Europe has seen but let's not spoil a good story.

I am still wondering with unemployment dropping again and an ageing population exactly what will happen if the tap is turned off?
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The Normans weren't French, they only spoke it. The Normans were Scandinavian. It's a common misconception like thinking Frankenstein is the name of the monster.

Napoleon was a dictator who murdered and slaughtered his own way to supreme power. Funny that; the French complained about having one unelected man in power who ruled everything like a dictator, then after years of slaughter, fear and violence they ended up with one unelected man in power who ruled everything like a dictator. Not exactly a man i'd bring up as an example of being a "great military commander"; a similar comparison can be made with another individual, but nobody would due to the fact they aren't deserving of any praise, no matter how factually correct it might be.
 
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