EU referendum

[EalingBlue2]

It seems to be getting worse and we are still 'in'. I think, being on our own could help as we don't need 20+ other nations to agree

Also, you have mentioned a few times that we will 'have to accept free movement' - I disagree

Also, regime change in the Middle-East did not help but nor does their backward religion and customs that no amount of money, at least in the short/medium term can fix. I'd suggest that education is the key but the structure of these countries makes that difficult

You are right we might not take free movement of labour but if we don't all the economic harm predicted will come and we will have to make huge cuts to government spending and invest a great deal using those savings and higher taxes to fill the gap not only that population growth brings but also the lost trade. This is the problem with the out vote , it is utterly split between the anti immigration element and the element that just wants cheaper labour, cheaper practises and more power centralised in London.

Much of Islam around the world is not that backwards at all, the really baclwards Islam has been driven out of Saudi Arabia and parts of Afghanistan with huge funds with virtually universal support and financial aid coming from the UK and US who believes the mujahideen needed full support to fight the soviets and who believed a "pro western" Saudi regime should be supported in the Middle East at all costs even if it used huge funds to support religious extremism as that kept the population quiet and supporting their regime. The problem of Islamic extremism is something that has to be dealt with but we can take a lot of the blame. What do you expect to happen when you set free an entire military elite who are Sunni on a Shia country where they Are
Going to be oppressed and when you know Saudi etc will back them

 

[EalingBlue2]

But they're coming from France, getting in boats to come across the busiest shipping lane in the world risking their and their families lives, why not just stay in France?

Because when you are promised it will be safe and you are going to the land of milk and honey you believe. Look at the total almost religious faith brexiters have about the exit, it won't harm us, Europe will give us a good deal, we can compete and take on the world, we can stop immigration with no negative consequences etc.

When people feel that life is treating them unfairly , when they feel victims and that their lives have to change people will believe anything, will cling to any glimmer of hope. however irrational or based on hope not fact it is.

Why would you even go to Europe to be stuck in a camp and hated by a large amount of the population for being poor and vulnerable and for being a victim of a war they started. Maybe you naively believe that the wealthy aren't as evil (or to be fair ignorant) as they appear, maybe you have faith in Europe, maybe you just can't stand another day where you are, maybe your kids have been taped or abuses or are starving, maybe they are dead, maybe you are a young man who just wants what you have seen in tv.

We live in a world where 50 individual people hold as much wealth as nearly 3.5 billion people - it's just possible some people may want a better life

I am sure it is hard to understand someone whining about their pension not being high enough, or healthcare meaning waits of a few weeks to see a doctor or classes having kids with foreign languages in, if you have never even had the very basics of any of them .

 

[Chippy_boy]

Lol. David Cameron spent twelve months trying to get concessions from the EU, and after travelling around kissing the arses of the Latvian, Lithuanian and Bulgarian presidents amongst others, and with the threat of a UK referendum just around the corner to help him, he came back with a packet of peanuts and a chewed up smartie. If we vote to Remain we're getting what we're given for the foreseeable future and those who vote Remain better not come on here pissing and moaning about it.

When

 

[AlgarveBlu]

I see the Spanish prime minister has just stated tonight that it would be very negative for British citizens in Spain if there was a Brexit. Nothing to do with the 300k expats by any chance?? Most coordinated stitch up in the history of stitch ups! Hope Catalonia gets independence and podemos rip the government apart...and hopefully Spain go out in the first round...thanks for David Silva though

 

[Blue Hefner]

You are right we might not take free movement of labour but if we don't all the economic harm predicted will come and we will have to make huge cuts to government spending and invest a great deal using those savings and higher taxes to fill the gap not only that population growth brings but also the lost trade. This is the problem with the out vote , it is utterly split between the anti immigration element and the element that just wants cheaper labour, cheaper practises and more power centralised in London.

Much of Islam around the world is not that backwards at all, the really baclwards Islam has been driven out of Saudi Arabia and parts of Afghanistan with huge funds with virtually universal support and financial aid coming from the UK and US who believes the mujahideen needed full support to fight the soviets and who believed a "pro western" Saudi regime should be supported in the Middle East at all costs even if it used huge funds to support religious extremism as that kept the population quiet and supporting their regime. The problem of Islamic extremism is something that has to be dealt with but we can take a lot of the blame. What do you expect to happen when you set free an entire military elite who are Sunni on a Shia country where they Are
Going to be oppressed and when you know Saudi etc will back them

I'd argue that all religion is backward but that is for another thread.....

I think we have a chance to be masters of our own destiny and I'd rather take that and fail than stay in just to be on the safe side

Also, this vote is not for the next, 6months, 12 months or even 5 years, it's for the next 100. And just look around what is happening and has happened in Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland etc, the EU doesn't work for most, it works for the few(elite) and like I said, I'd rather UK went alone without the ancor of the EU

 

[mcfc1632]

no but they've been labled traitors to their forefathers, gutless, cowardly, naZi supporting etc so all equally nonsensical. The fact is Brexit campaign is giving increasing voice to elements who you know as well as I are prejudiced and giving voice to an anti immigration element of Britain that for some isn't as agnostic to race , colour and religion as you would have us believe. That said I don't think this is the case with many brexiters and the main posters on here don't seem to hold those views but even this thread has had its Britain first moments

I will assume that you really believe this rather than are just saying it for convenience.

Either way though an objective read of this thread I would suggest would demonstrate that view to be total bollocks - it has clearly been the Remain camp that has much more been stigmatising the 'outers' with unsavoury and downright insulting labels - it smacks of ignorance and a desperation of argument

 

[AlgarveBlu]

I'd argue that all religion is backward but that is for another thread.....

I think we have a chance to be masters of our own destiny and I'd rather take that and fail than stay in just to be on the safe side

Also, this vote is not for the next, 6months, 12 months or even 5 years, it's for the next 100. And just look around what is happening and has happened in Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland etc, the EU doesn't work for most, it works for the few(elite) and like I said, I'd rather UK went alone without the ancor of the EU

Don't forget Italy the most eurosceptic country in the eu apart from the uk and a G7 member - if that one goes we will see a collapse of the eu which won't be pretty for all of us - our only hope is someone with a modicum of intelligence in the eu can sort this mess out

 

[smudgedj]

I see the Spanish prime minister has just stated tonight that it would be very negative for British citizens in Spain if there was a Brexit. Nothing to do with the 300k expats by any chance?? Most coordinated stitch up in the history of stitch ups! Hope Catalonia gets independence and podemos rip the government apart...and hopefully Spain go out in the first round...thanks for David Silva though

Now that would plunge spain back into a crisis most likely need another bail-out.

 

[mcfc1632]

I see the Spanish prime minister has just stated tonight that it would be very negative for British citizens in Spain if there was a Brexit. Nothing to do with the 300k expats by any chance?? Most coordinated stitch up in the history of stitch ups! Hope Catalonia gets independence and podemos rip the government apart...and hopefully Spain go out in the first round...thanks for David Silva though

Remain have coordinated Obama to give shrill warnings, G7, IMF ETC.ETC. and now heads of EU countries - yeah really? Spain would really play hardball with the UK and put at risk the impact to their economy - get real.

When will this shallow scaremongering end? Perhaps they are starting to shift from contempt for the UK populace and complacency to being a bit concerned?

 

[PragueBlue]

Why would it. I´m not in the EU and mine goes up in line with inflation every year.

My parents lived with me overseas and their pensions were frozen at the rate when they moved out of the UK, whereas pensions of UK citizens in the EU had their pensions increase as normal. When they returned to the UK, their pensions were adjusted upwards but the increases were not backdated. I know there were court cases about it planned at one stage but lost track of where it got to.

Here's a link about it http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...0-000-expats-stuck-frozen-state-pensions.html

 

[Helmet Cole]

My parents lived with me overseas and their pensions were frozen at the rate when they moved out of the UK, whereas pensions of UK citizens in the EU had their pensions increase as normal. When they returned to the UK, their pensions were adjusted upwards but the increases were not backdated. I know there were court cases about it planned at one stage but lost track of where it got to.

Here's a link about it http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...0-000-expats-stuck-frozen-state-pensions.html

No help to Ealing. The pension is frozen if you go to Oz :-(

 

[PragueBlue]

PMSL Do you make this shit up as you go along?

He's not wrong about pensions though.

 

[smudgedj]

My parents lived with me overseas and their pensions were frozen at the rate when they moved out of the UK, whereas pensions of UK citizens in the EU had their pensions increase as normal. When they returned to the UK, their pensions were adjusted upwards but the increases were not backdated. I know there were court cases about it planned at one stage but lost track of where it got to.

Here's a link about it http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...0-000-expats-stuck-frozen-state-pensions.html

Seems my pension rules are different (seems mine is uprated anywhere in the world) Everyday is a school day lol

 

[EalingBlue2]

I'd argue that all religion is backward but that is for another thread.....

I think we have a chance to be masters of our own destiny and I'd rather take that and fail than stay in just to be on the safe side

Also, this vote is not for the next, 6months, 12 months or even 5 years, it's for the next 100. And just look around what is happening and has happened in Greece, Portugal, Spain, Ireland etc, the EU doesn't work for most, it works for the few(elite) and like I said, I'd rather UK went alone without the ancor of the EU

You will be one in 65m instead of 1 in 400m no more master of your destiny but in a weaker smaller tribe

 

[EalingBlue2]

No help to Ealing. The pension is frozen if you go to Oz :-(

My only pension in the UK is about 5 years of a final salary one I won't be getting anything from UK or Aus so have to organise that myself

 

[EalingBlue2]

I will assume that you really believe this rather than are just saying it for convenience.

Either way though an objective read of this thread I would suggest would demonstrate that view to be total bollocks - it has clearly been the Remain camp that has much more been stigmatising the 'outers' with unsavoury and downright insulting labels - it smacks of ignorance and a desperation of argument

I try (don't always succeed) to separate brexiters who are doing it from an anti immigrant, anti European, anti everything attitude caused by envy and a belief that division and blame takes humans forward and brexiters who sincerely (though I believe incorrectly) that the long term economic and democratic interests of the U.K. Will be served by the exit

 

[Metal Biker]

You will be one in 65m instead of 1 in 400m no more master of your destiny but in a weaker smaller tribe

When you say 'weaker smaller tribe' in what sense do you mean? By that I don't mean "a worse economy, no clout etc", I mean what do you define as a country being 'weak'? Your use of tribe is quite telling.

Do you want Britain to be a United States type or a Canada type? Do you want Britain to have a central, decisive role in world affairs, shouting the odds or to butt out of it all and do its own thing, not antagonising other nations or peoples yet continuing to produce for trade purposes and negotiating deals? Should Britain's economy be closely linked with the strength of economies around the world, or whose purpose is just to address the lifestyles of its citizens? Does Britain's voice have to be one the world needs to listen to, and if so on what topics? Global Warming? International terrorism? Financial Crisis? War, famine, disease? Why would it be so wrong for Britain to take a step back and become like Brazil, New Zealand, Australia, Japan, Canada et al? Germany and Japan for example have grown since the 1950's as nations by not trying to influence and dictate world political agendas, and instead focusing on social matters that only affected their citizens; maybe it's time we did the same. The Empire is over, we should stop trying to build another one in the EU.Is world political isolationism a bad thing in your eyes?

So to clarify, how do you define weakness in respect to a nation like Britain in regards to its place in the world? What do you want Britain to be?

 

[smudgedj]

You will be one in 65m instead of 1 in 400m no more master of your destiny but in a weaker smaller tribe

But with nukes MawHAHAHAH!

 

[EalingBlue2]

When you say 'weaker smaller tribe' in what sense do you mean? By that I don't mean "a worse economy, no clout etc", I mean what do you define as a country being 'weak'? Your use of tribe is quite telling.

Do you want Britain to be a United States type or a Canada type? Do you want Britain to have a central, decisive role in world affairs, shouting the odds or to butt out of it all and do its own thing, not antagonising other nations or peoples yet continuing to produce for trade purposes and negotiating deals? Should Britain's economy be closely linked with the strength of economies around the world, or whose purpose is just to address the lifestyles of its citizens? Does Britain's voice have to be one the world needs to listen to, and if so on what topics? Global Warming? International terrorism? Financial Crisis? War, famine, disease? Why would it be so wrong for Britain to take a step back and become like Brazil, New Zealand, Australia, Japan, Canada et al? Germany and Japan for example have grown since the 1950's as nations by not trying to influence and dictate world political agendas, and instead focusing on social matters that only affected their citizens; maybe it's time we did the same. The Empire is over, we should stop trying to build another one in the EU.Is world political isolationism a bad thing in your eyes?

So to clarify, how do you define weakness in respect to a nation like Britain in regards to its place in the world? What do you want Britain to be?

Let's be quite honest in a generation Britain won't be a top ten economy and will have an irellevant military (possibly bar nukes but maybe with nukes) whether In or out so alone I don't know it makes any difference. I am also not sure we can do what Germany and Japan do as Britains have subscribed to an American style look after number one mentality rather than the social contract mentality elsewhere .

 

[Metal Biker]

Let's be quite honest in a generation Britain won't be a top ten economy and will have an irellevant military (possibly bar nukes but maybe with nukes) whether In or out so alone I don't know it makes any difference. I am also not sure we can do what Germany and Japan do as Britains have subscribed to an American style look after number one mentality rather than the social contract mentality elsewhere .

But you still haven't stated what type of country you want Britain to be.

All I could gleam from that is that you think Britain (in or out) will continue to become weaker, and so to 'protect' itself from ????? it needs to be part of something bigger like the EU to stop it from ????