EU referendum

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

I agree with you - as I say if you are a remain voter you are not going to change your position based on that interview. In fact if you are a committed remain voter then it can fuel existing concerns. From his (and the leave campaign) POV I wold suggest that they are likely very pleased following that session, because:

A) he got through pretty much 'unscathed' - unlike Cameron the night before - Faisal Islam was reduced to getting testy and attempting to get personal - and failing

B) For the genuine 'fence-sitters' there were some more moderate/campaign messages emerging about taking back control - trusting in the people etc. Of course there to be slated as empty of substance by the Remainers' but that does not matter and most importantly,

C) he likely won some voters over

Sadly I agree mate.....if you are confident and come across as if you know what you are doing, you can hide the real issues/concerns under the carpet...Michael Gove was such an expert at coming across confident but when you break down his answers he didnt actually answer any of the risks/concerns people have....the problem is here, by the time people find out that the "outs" havent got a clue what will happen to this country if we leave, it will be too late......People should be judging him on his "plan for the country once we leave" and on answering peoples concerns and not on what a great public speaker he was...because if they did, people will see the big holes in his argument.....in my opinion!; ) thanks

 

[AlgarveBlu]

There will be not turning back if we vote leave! I can see a legal challenge from the Brexiters if the vote is so close that ex pats would have tipped the balance to remain!

I spoke to a group of about 10 expats at the bar last night (half weren't eligible to vote) the other half simply couldn't be bothered with one saying that remain had it in the bag anyway. POLL IN THE Algarve Resident worded ' Would Brits living in Portugal be worse off with a Brexit' has 59% no and 41 yes - small sample though of 46 votes so far but interesting none the less as I thought it would already be 70-30 the other way.

Most UK expats are not in the eu anyway, Australia, NZ, Canada, S.A., S.E. Asia and the U.S. far outweigh the eu by about 3:1 and there's nothing to suggest that there votes will be driven by the same perceived fears of expats in the eu although on the other hand they may feel less inclined to vote.

 

[cibaman]

What if we had a 80% turn out and it finished 51% to 49% either way would there be a push for another vote?

I'm hoping for something like 55% Remain. Not so close that its a running sore that completely dominates politics with everything else being overlooked. Not so decisive that it can be taken as an endorsement of the EU.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

I spoke to a group of about 10 expats at the bar last night (half weren't eligible to vote) the other half simply couldn't be bothered with one saying that remain had it in the bag anyway. POLL IN THE Algarve Resident worded ' Would Brits living in Portugal be worse off with a Brexit' has 59% no and 41 yes - small sample though of 46 votes so far but interesting none the less as I thought it would already be 70-30 the other way.

Most UK expats are not in the eu anyway, Australia, NZ, Canada, S.A., S.E. Asia and the U.S. far outweigh the eu by about 3:1 and there's nothing to suggest that there votes will be driven by the same perceived fears of expats in the eu although on the other hand they may feel less inclined to vote.

Thanks AlgarveBlu

I'm impress with your pollster work!

 

[Pino]

[QU
In the EC as a whole, bureaucrats there pay just 11% to the final sum for their pensions. Just funding these costs the EU £36 billion a year…for 202,000 employees. The cost of State pensions for all 500 million EU citizens is £1,516 billion a year. Thus, £187,217 for every bureaucrat, and £3,000 for every citizen.

EC bureaucrats end up with pensions 60 times bigger than the citizens do

The three most powerful institutions in the EU are the EC, the ECB and the Eurogroupe. None of them are accountable to any elected official anywhere.
OTE="Tim of the Oak, post: 9482606, member: 54246"]Can you please post your evidence about your pension claim. It sounds more like FIFA than the EU![/QUOTE]

 

[mat]

It was an illegal vote involving foreign MPs

Scottish ones?

 

[yep]

The abysmal EU growth record. The EU countries make up about half as much of world GDP as when we joined. Currently the EU growth is approx. zero while the rest of the world is growing at 6% on average. A vote to Remain will give the green light to further harmonization of social, employment, tax and regulatory policy – risking abandonment of more liberal policies that have facilitated robust job creation in the UK.

Channel 4 news Factcheck-The most credible (economic) estimates of what happens if we leave the EU tend to show only a very small plus or minus, which suggests people on both sides of the debate tend to exaggerate the significance of membership on the British economy.

The Institute of Economic Affairs- Better Off Out? The benefits or costs of EU membership
The estimates presented here, it should be emphasised, are based on the worst case – an absence of any special relationship covering trade between the EU and a departed Britain. The conclusion of Chapter 3 was that arrangements better than the worst case would most likely be available. The entry of Britain into such arrangements might well therefore lead to net economic benefits, or, at worst, to a very small net economic loss. economic costs and benefits of withdrawal. Only persons of a hysterical disposition could describe these results in terms of ‘economic suicide’ or ‘economic disaster’. Britain can prosper outside the EU. Whether the British would wish to do so is another question.

N.B. Even if we stay in there is another referendum if there is another treaty change!

 

[BigJoe#1]

Sadly I agree mate.....if you are confident and come across as if you know what you are doing, you can hide the real issues/concerns under the carpet...Michael Gove was such an expert at coming across confident but when you break down his answers he didnt actually answer any of the risks/concerns people have....the problem is here, by the time people find out that the "outs" havent got a clue what will happen to this country if we leave, it will be too late......People should be judging him on his "plan for the country once we leave" and on answering peoples concerns and not on what a great public speaker he was...because if they did, people will see the big holes in his argument.....in my opinion!; ) thanks

Sorry you are completely and utterly wrong there IMO. The Brexiters cannot have a plan. They are NOT the Government. Only the Government can say what they will do when we leave, if that is what is voted for.

Cameron, if he was a responsible leader would be presenting balanced arguements about the pros and cons of staying and leaving. Clearly he is not doing this!

How can anyone in the Brexit camp say what Cameron will do if we leave- he is the PM, he is the leader, he called the referendum (for reasons best known to himself), he is responsible for the outcome, whatever that is. All the Brexit camp can do is give notice of their opinion about where they perceive the benefits and opportunities of leaving to be. They are powerless to do anything else, they could not form a government.

As I pointed out earlier, the Brexit camp were lambasted by the press for making manifesto pledges when they suggested using a version of the Australian points based system to control immigration - regardless from where in the world people came. And the press were right to lambast them, they are not in a position to do that - only the government should be making such plans.

I do believe there will be an election soon after if we did vote to leave, and the resoective parties would need to build their campaigns on the scenario of the time. But in the meantime, call me Dave should, if he was responsible, be highlighting what this government would do were the leave campaign successful!

 

[AlgarveBlu]

Thanks AlgarveBlu

I'm impress with your pollster work!

I didn't actually start the conversation in the bar it was an Irish bloke who was saying that he was thinking of voting remain and when I told him he wouldn't be eligible to vote he said that the Irish were allowed to vote in the uk referendum, as it was his round next I didn't have the heart to shatters his dreams ;-)

 

[cibaman]

Sorry you are completely and utterly wrong there IMO. The Brexiters cannot have a plan. They are NOT the Government. Only the Government can say what they will do when we leave, if that is what is voted for.

Cameron, if he was a responsible leader would be presenting balanced arguements about the pros and cons of staying and leaving. Clearly he is not doing this!

How can anyone in the Brexit camp say what Cameron will do if we leave- he is the PM, he is the leader, he called the referendum (for reasons best known to himself), he is responsible for the outcome, whatever that is. All the Brexit camp can do is give notice of their opinion about where they perceive the benefits and opportunities of leaving to be. They are powerless to do anything else, they could not form a government.

As I pointed out earlier, the Brexit camp were lambasted by the press for making manifesto pledges when they suggested using a version of the Australian points based system to control immigration - regardless from where in the world people came. And the press were right to lambast them, they are not in a position to do that - only the government should be making such plans.

I do believe there will be an election soon after if we did vote to leave, and the resoective parties would need to build their campaigns on the scenario of the time. But in the meantime, call me Dave should, if he was responsible, be highlighting what this government would do were the leave campaign successful!

If the Leave campaign had a clear, agreed view of what the future relationship with the UK would be, they would tell us. The silence isn't because they don't think its their right to do so. Its because they know that there is likely to be a wide range of views, ranging from a relationship similar to Norway's to one where we are completely out of the single market. With numerous variants in between. They just don't want to have that debate/argument yet because thet know it will be decisive and take them an eternity to resolve.

 

[Grolsch30]

I am an expat living in Germany, got my voting papers today and I will be voting OUT

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

Sorry you are completely and utterly wrong there IMO. The Brexiters cannot have a plan. They are NOT the Government. Only the Government can say what they will do when we leave, if that is what is voted for.

Cameron, if he was a responsible leader would be presenting balanced arguements about the pros and cons of staying and leaving. Clearly he is not doing this!

How can anyone in the Brexit camp say what Cameron will do if we leave- he is the PM, he is the leader, he called the referendum (for reasons best known to himself), he is responsible for the outcome, whatever that is. All the Brexit camp can do is give notice of their opinion about where they perceive the benefits and opportunities of leaving to be. They are powerless to do anything else, they could not form a government.

As I pointed out earlier, the Brexit camp were lambasted by the press for making manifesto pledges when they suggested using a version of the Australian points based system to control immigration - regardless from where in the world people came. And the press were right to lambast them, they are not in a position to do that - only the government should be making such plans.

I do believe there will be an election soon after if we did vote to leave, and the resoective parties would need to build their campaigns on the scenario of the time. But in the meantime, call me Dave should, if he was responsible, be highlighting what this government would do were the leave campaign successful!

Sorry to disagree but if someone like Michael Gove is going to stand in front of the country and expect people to trust and follow you......everyone should want to know....why? otherwise you just making a blind decision....if you dont have an idea/plan for how something might work, how do you expect the average person on the street to follow you?.......His only argument was "Hope and trust" in your fellow man to make "leaving" the EU work. When we all have different responsibilities and different priorities that just isnt good enough...He couldnt give any clear direction at all....Sorry but Hope and trust alone doesnt put food on my table.....keep people in jobs, stop the impact house prices etc, etc....I can honestly say, I was open to listen to what he had to say....I'm firmly in the "stay" camp but dont have a closed mind and was truely willing to listen and hold my hand up if I feel I needed to change my view..... and was willing to do just that if Michael Gove could have answered any of the risks/concerns we would be taking.....sadly he didnt and as of now....for me personally and just my opinion.....staying is clearly the right decision to make...and it not even close...

As one of the poeple asking questions to Michael Gove said:

"It's like voting for a divorce and agreeing to sort the financial settlement afterwards".......under those circumstances nobody would agree to that.......

OR....as another example...its like,

going for a job and accepting it without asking what you'd be doing or how much your salary would be........just doesnt make any sense!

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

I didn't actually start the conversation in the bar it was an Irish bloke who was saying that he was thinking of voting remain and when I told him he wouldn't be eligible to vote he said that the Irish were allowed to vote in the uk referendum, as it was his round next I didn't have the heart to shatters his dreams ;-)

LOL!;)

Just wanted to say I've enjoyed reading your posts mate.....clear and informative.......

 

[Tim of the Oak]

I didn't actually start the conversation in the bar it was an Irish bloke who was saying that he was thinking of voting remain and when I told him he wouldn't be eligible to vote he said that the Irish were allowed to vote in the uk referendum, as it was his round next I didn't have the heart to shatters his dreams ;-)

Haha! The head of our supporters Club, whose moving to Spain in a couple of years, said there has been a court case to stop ex pats in the EU voting in future! He's still pissed off that living South of the border he wasn't allowed to vote in the Scottish referendum lol!

 

[BigJoe#1]

If the Leave campaign had a clear, agreed view of what the future relationship with the UK would be, they would tell us. The silence isn't because they don't think its their right to do so. Its because they know that there is likely to be a wide range of views, ranging from a relationship similar to Norway's to one where we are completely out of the single market. With numerous variants in between. They just don't want to have that debate/argument yet because thet know it will be decisive and take them an eternity to resolve.

As an ardent leaver I agree the picture is less than clear about what would happen if we were to leave. I also think it would be naievity to make any firm pledges, plans promises, call them what you will because the biggest unknown is: what will happen in Europe if we left and that would have a massive influence on our options. All we can say is that we're the fifths biggest economy in the world and when the aftermath is discussed we will be at the table, be that in a European or even a global context.

I think the landscape will be so different if we do vote to leave the comparisons with Norway, Switzerland, Canada are not really realistic are they? Firstly we're coming from a totally different starting point, secondly, our economy is larger than these three combined so we will be in a much stronger position, even the Remainers need to acknowledge that. The EU without our money will be even weaker and I would not be at all surprised if other nations in the EU were forced by their people to have their own referendums. It is far too complex to begin making solid plans and pledges. All we can do is give confidence that we are going to be a major world player when we leave the EU and that we (our elected government) should be contemplating what's best for Britain and the rest of the EU and the world when we leave.

To ask to guarantee jobs is naieve and stupid. It just cannot be done by a cross party coalition group that would never form the next government. It's down to call me Dave - he is the only one, as PM that can position us on exit.

 

[Gelsons Dad]

It's an interesting point. What will the EU look like without the UK.
It's already failing economically with our figures included. What happens when you subtract our growth? It looks like a basket case. Which is what it is. The economic arguments are all based on the EU being some kind of crutch for us to lean on but the opposite is true.

If the uk did vote to leave, we would be swiftly followed by Denmark then pretty much every other of the smaller nations who don't benefit financially from the EU. It will leave Germany and France propping up all the Med economies until the German population demand to leave.

In all that time we will have stolen a march in terms of global trade.

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

As an ardent leaver I agree the picture is less than clear about what would happen if we were to leave. I also think it would be naievity to make any firm pledges, plans promises, call them what you will because the biggest unknown is: what will happen in Europe if we left and that would have a massive influence on our options. All we can say is that we're the fifths biggest economy in the world and when the aftermath is discussed we will be at the table, be that in a European or even a global context.

I think the landscape will be so different if we do vote to leave the comparisons with Norway, Switzerland, Canada are not really realistic are they? Firstly we're coming from a totally different starting point, secondly, our economy is larger than these three combined so we will be in a much stronger position, even the Remainers need to acknowledge that. The EU without our money will be even weaker and I would not be at all surprised if other nations in the EU were forced by their people to have their own referendums. It is far too complex to begin making solid plans and pledges. All we can do is give confidence that we are going to be a major world player when we leave the EU and that we (our elected government) should be contemplating what's best for Britain and the rest of the EU and the world when we leave.

To ask to guarantee jobs is naieve and stupid. It just cannot be done by a cross party coalition group that would never form the next government. It's down to call me Dave - he is the only one, as PM that can position us on exit.

Is it then fair to say we've become the 5th biggest economy in the world while being part of the EU?......if so, the question really should be...would we be the 5th biggest economy with OR without the EU?...If we such a strong country and the 5th biggest economy now, why risk all that?.....(genuine question!)

 

[smudgedj]

Is it then fair to say we've become the 5th biggest economy in the world while being part of the EU?......if so, the question really should be...would we be the 5th biggest economy with OR without the EU?...If we such a strong country and the 5th biggest economy now, why risk all that?.....(genuine question!)

It´s in spite of the EU. It´s down to the ability of the people, which, of course, are too stupid to survive outside of the EU. Imagine what could be achieved without the bureaucracy and red tape?

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Sorry to disagree but if someone like Michael Gove is going to stand in front of the country and expect people to trust and follow you......everyone should want to know....why? otherwise you just making a blind decision....if you dont have an idea/plan for how something might work, how do you expect the average person on the street to follow you?.......His only argument was "Hope and trust" in your fellow man to make "leaving" the EU work. When we all have different responsibilities and different priorities that just isnt good enough...He couldnt give any clear direction at all....Sorry but Hope and trust alone doesnt put food on my table.....keep people in jobs, stop the impact house prices etc, etc....I can honestly say, I was open to listen to what he had to say....I'm firmly in the "stay" camp but dont have a closed mind and was truely willing to listen and hold my hand up if I feel I needed to change my view..... and was willing to do just that if Michael Gove could have answered any of the risks/concerns we would be taking.....sadly he didnt and as of now....for me personally and just my opinion.....staying is clearly the right decision to make...and it not even close...

As one of the poeple asking questions to Michael Gove said:

"It's like voting for a divorce and agreeing to sort the financial settlement afterwards".......under those circumstances nobody would agree to that.......

OR....as another example...its like,

going for a job and accepting it without asking what you'd be doing or how much your salary would be........just doesnt make any sense!

Ok then mate tell us what life will be like in the eu in a year, 2 years 5 years, 10 years . Go on. Tell us. I take it Its immune from economic collapse or fluctuations in economic cycles? I take it and migration will be under control. Power will not centralise? will other countries join. What will happen to Greece and the other Southern European countries who are on the verge of collapse. I take it the far right building across Europe will have vanished. Will we join the euro or not? What effect will that have?

It's no good having a go at the brexiters for failing to present what the future will look like if remainions cannot either, honestly you would think the remainions have mystic meg locked up somewhere......

 

[Monkfish]

It´s in spite of the EU. It´s down to the ability of the people, which, of course, are too stupid to survive outside of the EU. Imagine what could be achieved without the bureaucracy and red tape?

Or it is down to the EU, and the British people who have managed to use the EU to our advantage and create a vibrant prosperous cosmopolitan nation. Imagine what could be achieved if some of our people's scepticism could be overcome and we could lead Europe into an even greater future