EU referendum

[Helmet Cole]

I would stop here if I were you.....big hairy spiders over there.

Already married to one :-(

 

[EalingBlue2]

I am sure you know my thoughts on our Prime minister, and yes he used the promise of a referendum as a vote winner in the last election, he did so in the misguided belief that he could easily lie too and bully the electorate into voting to remain on the back of his "massive" influence and his fantastic negotiating skills within the EU. He like you underestimated the level to which many have become disenchanted with the EU, he underestimated how even today the population of this country are not to fond of being dictated too and taken for idiots. Had for one minute he realised exactly how little he would achieve by threatening us with armagheddon, and how little notice the other European leaders would take of his demands when he went to negotiate his "deal".

Voting out will not solve everything, it will not turn this country into some magical eutopia and nor do those of us who will vote out expect it too. Cameron for all the wrong reasons did exactly the right thing in giving us the vote, why because we are a democratic independent country and membership of the EU is becoming increasingly distant from those democratic values.

Am I right in that you dont live in the UK? Is that the reason you clearly feel it would be fine to vote to remain and at a stroke end this nations history of democracy and freedom?

History is not ended , it is inevitable on going and created every day! As for democracy at the moment the EU is more democratic than the UK. After all the defecto head of the Eu is selected by democratically elected leaders and not born to it, the civil service is selected by democratically elected leaders not in it for life and the second chamber (as the parliament is) is democratically elected not born or appointed to it. Add to the fact that the. Pub up of ministers is entirely democratically elected and from most countries by a far more representative democratic method than FFP and you can see why...

1) it is not surrendering democracy and 2 ) I don't believe in your nationalistic definition of history any more than I believe in the Rags/dippers definition of history

 

[EalingBlue2]

Fair enough. I'll see that twat when I get there.

If we let you in! I might start an anti immigration movement here just in case! You heading to Aus?

 

[Leech]

Tub thumping patriotism, it isnt. Wishing to control our own country and to remain an independent democratic country is hardly right wing nationalist doctrine.

Have you ever been to other European countries? There's no desire whatsoever for anyone to give up their national identities.

Rolling up the windows, boarding the shutters and saying F U to the biggest free trade zone in the world is utterly stupid to our future growth.

Ironically we'll likely be the ones dictating rules to others. We're the second biggest cocks in the roost.

 

[Helmet Cole]

If we let you in! I might start an anti immigration movement here just in case! You heading to Aus?

Yep. Probably Queensland 2020 when I get my pension. Looks like we're priced out of Brisbane cbd, so bogan country it is.
I'll be the worst sort of immigrant BTW, turning up on a spousal residency basis with two kids and no job ;-)

 

[EalingBlue2]

Fair enough. I'll see that twat when I get there.

If we let you in! I might start an anti immigration movement here just in case! You heading t Aus

Yep. Probably Queensland 2020 when I get my pension. Looks like we're priced out of Brisbane cbd, so bogan country it is.

head up the coast or an hour inland and you'll get much better deals. Hope you don't mind red necks :-) Queensland is beautiful but once you get out of the cities it's like the Deep South

Only bit of advice if give is come down for three or six months first and make sure you like it, rent a house , try a few places. Queensland is a tropical world away from the UK.

 

[YPhrunts]

People seem misguided in why they want to leave the EU. It seems to be all about British sovereignty and not wishing to take orders and immigrants as dictated to us by some prat in Brussels.

The fact is under the renegotiated terms immigrants will have no reason to come here if they aren't able to contribute towards our GDP and the growth of the nation, and in any case the negative effects we see caused by societal segregation today are actually second and third generation British citizens of foreign descent, not recent entrants. You can't just shut the borders and expect those problems to disappear.

We're at the head of the largest free trade zone in the world, why throw such a thing away for misplaced tub thumping patriotism?

There is no guarantee Cameron's concessions will go ahead. They have to be voted on in Brussels after we have had our referendum and they will be kicked out. They have to be because they meddle with one of the agreed Treaties and there is no way the EU can survive if one member can get away with bending the rules. Christ we are already pushing it by not taking part in the Fiscal Pact. Messing about with in work benefit agreements will be a bridge too far. We all seem to overlook the fact that the agreement only last for four years anyway and then reverts back to the status quo. They won't even agree to that once we have voted to remain.

 

[purplenose]

History is not ended , it is inevitable on going and created every day! As for democracy at the moment the EU is more democratic than the UK. After all the defecto head of the Eu is selected by democratically elected leaders and not born to it, the civil service is selected by democratically elected leaders not in it for life and the second chamber (as the parliament is) is democratically elected not born or appointed to it. Add to the fact that the. Pub up of ministers is entirely democratically elected and from most countries by a far more representative democratic method than FFP and you can see why...

1) it is not surrendering democracy and 2 ) I don't believe in your nationalistic definition of history any more than I believe in the Rags/dippers definition of history

I am afraid to compare insignificant football rivalries to what lies ahead is plain silly.....

How can you say that by remaining in the EU is not surrendering democracy when nobody in Europe denies the ultimate goal of this Union is to become a European super state?

I doubt any out voters would claim our country is perfect or that it isnt riddled with corruption, or that the electoral system is without fault. However we can currently vote for a new government should we choose to do so.....

Can you explain to me why the countries in Europe that are not in the EU have a higher standard of living? Why the country that you live in would not touch membership of such a union with a shitty stick?

As for history it doesnt end well when it is ignored.....no matter how much bleating there is about nationalism racism and so on it will not change the fact that to try and lump together so many nationalities cultures and religions always has and always will end very badly indeed on a political and social level. Like it or not many of those cultures are simply incompatible politically, socially, and in the general beliefs of how people wish to live their lives.....Greece is an example. What the EU aims to do is utter and absolute madness driven by greed and ignorance. Mr Camerons third world war is far more probable should the EU achieve its aims, infact I would say its almost certain should it do so.

 

[purplenose]

Have you ever been to other European countries? There's no desire whatsoever for anyone to give up their national identities.

Rolling up the windows, boarding the shutters and saying F U to the biggest free trade zone in the world is utterly stupid to our future growth.

Ironically we'll likely be the ones dictating rules to others. We're the second biggest cocks in the roost.

As has been made clear many economic co-operation treaties and so on could work perfectly well without giving up the right to run your own country as you see fit.

 

[YPhrunts]

Have you ever been to other European countries? There's no desire whatsoever for anyone to give up their national identities.

Rolling up the windows, boarding the shutters and saying F U to the biggest free trade zone in the world is utterly stupid to our future growth.

Ironically we'll likely be the ones dictating rules to others. We're the second biggest cocks in the roost.

Whaa? They have already given up their individual currencies to join the Eurozone.
A remain vote will probably reduce the UK to a vassal state with no powers to achieve high office by any of our representatives. Cameron is putting all his chips on the fact that that won't happen because he wants a top job.
If you are one of the ones that think we have the clout to 'reform' an un-reformable Europe then you should be willing to get stuck right in and be taken seriously around the negotiating table. We will not be able to influence any major decisions in the EU as long as we are outside the euro, Schengen area, future EU army and without voicing genuine support for a future European superstate.
In other words complete capitulation. That's what remainers should be pushing for if they want to 'try' to reform an organisation that is held together by Treaty laws written in stone with fines for transgressions.
Good luck with that.

 

[EalingBlue2]

As has been made clear many economic co-operation treaties and so on could work perfectly well without giving up the right to run your own country as you see fit.

The country isn't run by you it is run by a small group of wealthy powerful mainly men, who run the big companies, who become the judges and MPs, who run the media and tell you what to think, and who give precisely no fucks about any of us. In or out we will still be run by these people we will still be utterly dependent on others for defence, food, power , out digital infrastructure . It's funny that you think you will have more influence in the less democratic UK than you can in Europe. You've been sold a puppy , you believe it , good luck

 

[EalingBlue2]

I am afraid to compare insignificant football rivalries to what lies ahead is plain silly.....

How can you say that by remaining in the EU is not surrendering democracy when nobody in Europe denies the ultimate goal of this Union is to become a European super state?

I doubt any out voters would claim our country is perfect or that it isnt riddled with corruption, or that the electoral system is without fault. However we can currently vote for a new government should we choose to do so.....

Can you explain to me why the countries in Europe that are not in the EU have a higher standard of living? Why the country that you live in would not touch membership of such a union with a shitty stick?

As for history it doesnt end well when it is ignored.....no matter how much bleating there is about nationalism racism and so on it will not change the fact that to try and lump together so many nationalities cultures and religions always has and always will end very badly indeed on a political and social level. Like it or not many of those cultures are simply incompatible politically, socially, and in the general beliefs of how people wish to live their lives.....Greece is an example. What the EU aims to do is utter and absolute madness driven by greed and ignorance. Mr Camerons third world war is far more probable should the EU achieve its aims, infact I would say its almost certain should it do so.

The U.K. Has long been the greediest country in the EU and historically possibly the greediest there has been, few if any have exploited the world, slavery, the natural resources we have , other countries on the planet I the industrial way we have . To leave the EU is to throw away the conscience and head for the lowest common denominator .

 

[EalingBlue2]

Yep. Probably Queensland 2020 when I get my pension. Looks like we're priced out of Brisbane cbd, so bogan country it is.
I'll be the worst sort of immigrant BTW, turning up on a spousal residency basis with two kids and no job ;-)

The only kind of immigration there should be - moving to have a better life . I came on a spouse visa minus the kids, my only qualification a clean criminal record, being TB free and having lived with an Aussie girl for 4 years

 

[BigJoe#1]

I am actually far less interested in the in and out part than the fact this is manipulated by the people who are behind all the mess we are in to turn the population on each other rather than focus on speculators, tax dodgers, hedge fund owners, media moguls who twist and lie to a population and all the people who really cause the issues. I hate seeing poor immigrants being expected to pay the crimes for corrupt billionaires. It's the political equivalent of street drug dealers getting 10 years whilst the powers behind the trade dine with politicians in Michelin starred restaurants.

If Brexit was in any way remotely serious and had thought at all with any intelligence or long term thinking about good policies for equality, democracy or any of the lofty ideas bandied around as a way of pretending it's not about immigration then I may even be on that side

You really don't get it do you?

The Brexiters are NOT a political party, nor, like the Remainers, will they ever be!

How the hell can they delver policies?

All they can do is demonstrate their interpretation of how thEU has not been good for this country, how we have been slowed down in our advancements to the pace of countries like Greece and Portugal. To give their interpretation if how much it's costing us and what money could potentially be saved through non contributions. They can highlight the impact of increasing our number on the under invested infrastructure and point out the it's taking weeks to get a doctors appointmen because if the lack of GPs available, how people are unable to register with dentists or get housing.

All they can do is highlight the potential that coming out delivers. How that potential us capitalised and realised is a totally different story, that will be down the political will of the Britush elected government - this group of people cannot make any such pledges. The person who should be delivering in this is Cameron! He's the PM, he called the fererendunm and he s the only one who can make any pledges or promise any Policies. The same goes for the opposition, they should be drawing up plans about what they'll do if we were to leave. There is no way, as a campaign group the Brexiters can do this!

 

[BigJoe#1]

The only kind of immigration there should be - moving to have a better life . I came on a spouse visa minus the kids, my only qualification a clean criminal record, being TB free and having lived with an Aussie girl for 4 years

And if you were only having a clean criminal record and were TB free but had no Aussie Girl, would you have gotten in then? Sadly many of the immigrants that you're happy to allow to come here, come complete with impressive criminal records and major health issues and we are powerless to stop them if they're from within the EU!

With which local countries do Australia have such generous arrangements, such that career criminals can just rock up and say "this us now my home" I genuinely haven't looked into this but does Australia have a "Free at Point of Use" health system such as ours? A health system where people who cannot get treated in their own country can turn up here and expect and get treated on the back of British tax payers money?

 

[BigJoe#1]

The U.K. Has long been the greediest country in the EU and historically possibly the greediest there has been, few if any have exploited the world, slavery, the natural resources we have , other countries on the planet I the industrial way we have . To leave the EU is to throw away the conscience and head for the lowest common denominator .

I can agree with the first part of your statement Greed s very much the culture here in Britain, and it's people of your era who have been brought up through the Thatcher era who are the biggest perpetrators of it, not your fault I know, you've never known any different, but it is the accepted culture of your generation.

As fir bullshit like "exploited natural resources", "built on slavery" yes these things happened but that my good friend EB2 is what's called progress, evolution. It's what's had to happen to deliver us to where we are today. It seems like in your perfect world everyone would still be in the same country they were born in and nothing in the world would have moved on. Some parts of the world would probably still not invented the wheel!

Get real EB2, open your eyes to the very real problems that exist and instead of brushing them under the carpet hoping they'll go away (for today at least), tell us how with uncontrolled immigration we can cope going forward when the wheels are already so buckled they can hardly turn as it is today, how we can treat these people on the NHS, how we can provide schooling, how we can police these people properly, all set against the background of austerity cuts and public spending bring slashed.

Finally don't give me bullshit like ALL immigrants come here and contribute to our society. Culturally, yes they may but financially no they don't. The majority that work are on very low wages and as Call me Dave is keen to point out, tens of thousands of people are now nit laying income rtax because he's raised the threshold, I out up to you that the majority of those tens of thousands are low skilled, low paid immigrants. Then the next lowest group if taxpayers are paying less, again I put it to you that a hugely disproportionate number if these to the indigenous population are low skilled, low paid EU migrants....

Time for a good old British cup if tea methinks !

 

[BigJoe#1]

Not sure about that. If we vote to remain, I suspect UKIP will get a huge surge in support from all the major parties as being the only real exit party. Not sure if they can maintain it to the next election though.

This us the truth and this is the danger. The British public is almost being forced to support the uprising of the far right parties, because none of the mainstream parties gave the balls to support leaving the EU. Thus was a gilt edged opportunity for Corbyn which he has failed or indeed chosen not to recognise!

 

[BigJoe#1]

Have you ever been to other European countries? There's no desire whatsoever for anyone to give up their national identities.

Rolling up the windows, boarding the shutters and saying F U to the biggest free trade zone in the world is utterly stupid to our future growth.

Ironically we'll likely be the ones dictating rules to others. We're the second biggest cocks in the roost.

I don't think anyone wants to give up the biggest trade zone in the world.... It's what comes with it, free movement agreements, political integration and bundles of red tape all of which were never voted for but were foist upon us, is what people want rid of!

 

[whp.blue]

Seriously? You think stopping legal immigration will stop illegal immigration? It will probably make it worse.

But if we are out of the EU and the stupid interpretation of the Human rights act we would be able to deport all illegals back to the eu upon being caught and without the right of appeal to the European Courts.
If we did this the attraction of trying to get into the UK would soon dissipate.

 

[Chippy_boy]

surprised at the post from you chippy - it smacks more of frustration than logical thought. That's the most simplified summarisation I've ever read.

Not even the remain camp have come out with anything as extreme as your scenario A (forever)

Er, yes, they have. And being worse off *forever* is entirely possible. To *not* be worse off forever, would assume that we can bring more trade to the UK than the loss of trade with the EU that would result in a Brexit. There's no guarantee at all that this would happen, and therefore, logically it is *entirely* possible that we might be worse off *forever*. Doubtless the fanatics in the Brexit camp can't bring themselves to consider that possibility.

Not that difficult.

A) Do you want Britain to be a self-governing democracy?
B) Do you want Britain to be a subordinate state of a supreme government for Europe?

People simply need to decide if they prefer A or B

Hmmm, rather selectively glossing over some of the key points in A, I think. Would you prefer give be given £10 or £100? Or how about £10 or £100 and a punch in the face? Not quite the same question, is it.