EU referendum

[yep]

Remember when the Prime Minister and Chancellor of the Exchequer claimed to have halved the £1.5 billion European Union bill when in reality they had no achieved any reduction at all and merely counted the rebate the UK was to receive anyway.
The EU now has a £20 billion hole reportedly. Will we be asked to pay more . Answers on a Paddy Power betting slip, please.

 

[SWP's back]

Good points.....and partly why I feel that most of our issues will not change unless we fix the problems in our own backyard......before jumping blindly off a cliff...and just hoping for the best!;) Which is what we will be doing if vote out, without even knowing what the plan is going to be....nobody knows how bad the economy is going to get no matter how much you and I think we do know...but most seem to agree its going to get worse before its gets better....and dont even know when it would get better....when you count on jobs, homes, putting food on the table for the kids.....I dont bet on a "maybe"....

A man who refuses to leave the shore can never discover new oceans.

As I say, the IN vote will win but it will be because of fear as opposed to wanting to do what is right and correct.

The EEC was a great idea but now is a bastardised behemoth federalist nightmare.

 

[sir baconface]

Fcuked...by suicidal unions, supine unprofessional management and piss poor quality goods. We have since overtaken France and Italy, if I'm not mistaken, and narrowed the gap on Germany. That would be thanks much more to radical internal reform than "assistance" from the EU.

Our most prolific outer on here would have us return to those "good old days" when high principles ruled the roost.

We weren't when we joined in 1973 as I said.

That all came well after.

Unless my memory deceives me, we were in a long period of decline characterised by strikes, British Leyland and - a year later - the three day week. Industrial relations were a complete abortion.

P.S. I meant prolific inner, not outer.

 

[cibaman]

I think Boris is next PM whatever happens (In will win by about ten points).

Cameron has had an awful campaign and the back benches will perform a bloody coup. Should be a laugh anyway.

Doesn't Cameron have to lose a vote of no confidence first? Given that there is still a majority of Tory MPs on the Remain side, and that he is stepping down in a couple of years anyway, wouldn't a 10 point winning margin be enough to keep him in power until 2018?

 

[remember arthur mann]

Oh you argued against that fucking brilliantly. I'm 35, I work in investments and have an economics degree and on the job industry degree.

What are your qualifications and which facts did I misrepresent?

Exactly, so you wasn't working for a living in the 70's and you are not working for a living now, you have got a degree, still wet behind the ears !

 

[SWP's back]

Unless my memory deceives me, we were in a long period of decline characterised by strikes, British Leyland and - a year later - the three day week. Industrial relations were a complete abortion.

P.S. I meant prolific inner, not outer.

Again. That came later.

 

[SWP's back]

Exactly, so you wasn't working for a living in the 70's and you are not working for a living now, you have got a degree, still wet behind the ears !

Ah right. A working class warrior are you?

Sadly you're labouring under the misapprehension that having anecdotal evidence of one persons view on the world equals knowledge on countrywide macroeconomics.

You've yet to even attempt to point out where I am wrong. My figures are accurate and you can check them here:

http://countryeconomy.com/gdp?year=1973

As for wet behind the ears, you're having a laugh. I bet I've worked in more areas than you've seen. But try and play the ball rather than the man. That is if you actually have a point to argue.

Last thing, it's "you weren't working for a living", not "you wasn't". I take it you didn't do overly well at school? Shame, the late 70's may have been more pleasant for you if you had.

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

Oh you argued against that fucking brilliantly. I'm 35, I work in investments and have an economics degree and on the job industry degree.

What are your qualifications and which facts did I misrepresent?

I kinda guess mate!;).....could tell with your detailed posts you know alittle more than I do about economic matters, I know when not to throw amounts and economic % at a person!;) Google is my friend! he!.....but because of your background will also know then that until any possible new agreements with the EU are put in place, the economy could be negatively hit by leaving.....and would you also agree that no one knows how long that will take or even if the EU would agree to our terms? Too many risks and unknows....As I've said many times....its like cutting off your nose to spite your face....the world has change alot since 1973....the market has changed, the economy has changed....as places like Switzerland and Norway have shown.....its misplaced to think leaving will fix our immigration issues etc, etc....and this seems to be one of the many reasons why some people want out....single market and freedom of movement will go head in head with any EU deal....and those people that vote because of that reason will see no change at all....

 

[sir baconface]

Again. That came later.

I was there and was working in Industrial Relations at the time. It was fcukin awful.

You've just said you were 35 so you can only be going off something you've read.

 

[remember arthur mann]

Ah right. A working class warrior are you?

Sadly you're labouring under the misapprehension that having anecdotal evidence of one persons view on the world equals knowledge on countrywide macroeconomics.

You've yet to even attempt to point out where I am wrong. My figures are accurate and you can check them here:

http://countryeconomy.com/gdp?year=1973

As for wet behind the ears, you're having a laugh. I bet I've worked in more areas than you've seen. But try and play the ball rather than the man. That is if you actually have a point to argue.

Last thing, it's "you weren't working for a living", not "you wasn't". I take it you didn't do overly well at school? Shame, the late 70's may have been more pleasant for you if you had.

True on one point, I had to go down pit at fourteen !

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

A man who refuses to leave the shore can never discover new oceans.

As I say, the IN vote will win but it will be because of fear as opposed to wanting to do what is right and correct.

The EEC was a great idea but now is a bastardised behemoth federalist nightmare.

its not fear......I truly dont believe the long term benefit is worth the short-mid term risk......and as no one knows what the long term benefits are truely going to be(unless someone can see the future!)its difficult for anyone to say this is the wrong view to have!;) See you on transfer thread mate!;)

 

[SWP's back]

I kinda guess mate!;).....could tell with your detailed posts you know alittle more than I do about economic matters, I know when not to throw amounts and economic % at person!;) Google is my friend! he!.....but because of your background will also know then that until any possible new agreements with the EU are put in place, the economy could be negatively hit by leaving.....and would you also agree that no one knows how long that will take or even if the EU would agree to our terms? Too many risks and unknows....As I've said many times....its like cutting off your nose to spite your face....the world has change alot since 1973....the market has changed, the economy has changed....as places like Switzerland and Norway have shown.....its misplaced to think leaving will fix our immigration issues etc, etc....and this seems to be one of the many reasons why some people want out....single market and freedom of movement will go head in head with any EU deal....and those people that vote because of that reason will see no change at all....

No one knows what will happen as no one can know. It's never been done before but the UK would have two years to sort things out.

I am more than likely to vote IN for the very selfish reason that it will be easier on my clients investments in the short term (markets don't mind good or bad news but hate uncertainty - so it makes my job easier), but I don't like the way the EU is going and feel here as good a place as any to forward my view.

I'm a europhile by nature, I'm in favour of free movement of labour, immigration doesn't both me in the least, but an unelectable Federal European Government is a ghastly idea and I hope for a close vote to spook the Germans into shying away from further Federalist Union.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Ok so just to ensure no ambiguity to what you are saying is.

Australia is able to trade with the eu if it chooses to even though miles away and 10 percent of its trade is with the eu.

And

Switzerland which is in Europe but not part of the eu, trades 50 percent with the eu.

Sorry I thought it was a special club......

No ,

Australia barely trades with the EU because it is not in the club and far away and Switzerland has huge trade with the EU because it is near and is a social 5 day member of the club.

 

[SWP's back]

I was there and was working in Industrial Relations at the time. It was fcukin awful.

You've just said you were 35 so you can only be going off something you've read.

I could give you a detailed breakdown on the battle of Agincort as well, but I'd be going on the best sources available at the time.

As with any history and especially history where economics is concerned, looking at macroeconomics and a top down view from multiple sources gives a greater and more detailed view than personal anecdotal experience when discussing how a country as a whole performs.

Look at it another way, you're a Lloyds TSB shareholder in 2008, I talk to you now and you say that investing in banking 2008-09 was fucking appalling. I speak with HRH Mansour and he says it was an amazing time to be in banking stock at the time. You're both correct in your own experiences but neither tells the whole story.

In 1973, the uk economy was huge, 5th in the world and bigger than China or India and with greater GDP growth than the US, France or Germany. Things fell apart after that. The reason I keep posting that fact is that others are saying the EU helped "the sick man of Europe from the floor and to 5th in the world" which isn't true.

We were already a huge and strong economy before we joined in 1973, we had issues after that (when already part of the EEC, which did fuck all to help us), we are strong because we are strong. Forgive me for using another analogy but it reminds me of a conversation I had today with a Muslim mate of mine, he claimed Ali was the greatest because his Muslim faith gave him strength. My argument was that his faith was incidental, he was great as Cassius Clay, he continued to be great after his conversation as well. He was great because of who he was.

 

[SWP's back]

True on one point, I had to go down pit at fourteen !

Ah. You have my commiserations.

 

[sir baconface]

I could give you a detailed breakdown on the battle of Agincort as well, but I'd be going on the best sources available at the time.

As with any history and especially history where economics is concerned, looking at macroeconomics and a top down view from multiple sources gives a greater and more detailed view than personal anecdotal experience when discussing how a country as a whole performs.

Look at it another way, you're a Lloyds TSB shareholder in 2008, I talk to you now and you say that investing in banking 2008-09 was fucking appalling. I speak with HRH Mansour and he says it was an amazing time to be in banking stock at the time. You're both correct in your own experiences but neither tells the whole story.

In 1973, the uk economy was huge, 5th in the world and bigger than China or India and with greater GDP growth than the US, France or Germany. Things fell apart after that. The reason I keep posting that fact is that others are saying the EU helped "the sick man of Europe from the floor and to 5th in the world" which isn't true.

We were already a huge and strong economy before we joined in 1973, we had issues after that (when already part of the EEC, which did fuck all to help us), we are strong because we are strong. Forgive me for using another analogy but it reminds me of a conversation I had today with a Muslim mate of mine, he claimed Ali was the greatest because his Muslim faith gave him strength. My argument was that his faith was incidental, he was great as Cassius Clay, he continued to be great after his conversation as well. He was great because of who he was.

Not worth arguing with someone who knows it all. You need to read up on industrial relations.

 

[Helmet Cole]

Not worth arguing with someone who knows it all. You need to read up on industrial relations.

Stop being a slapped arse. There is nothing there you can argue with without lying or being a tit. SWP has hit the nail on the head with each point.

 

[SWP's back]

Not worth arguing with someone who knows it all.

Not worth arguing if you can't pick out where I'm wrong you mean.

There's also a difference between "something I've read" and "something I had to study".

Also says a lot when I take the time to explain something and you can't be arsed to reply. Especially when arguing from the same side, just disputing the timings.

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

No one knows what will happen as no one can know. It's never been done before but the UK would have two years to sort things out.

I am more than likely to vote IN for the very selfish reason that it will be easier on my clients investments in the short term (markets don't mind good or bad news but hate uncertainty - so it makes my job easier), but I don't like the way the EU is going and feel here as good a place as any to forward my view.

I'm a europhile by nature, I'm in favour of free movement of labour, immigration doesn't both me in the least, but an unelectable Federal European Government is a ghastly idea and I hope for a close vote to spook the Germans into shying away from further Federalist Union.

Thanks for your open and honest reply mate!;) sadly politics is alot harder to discuss that Pep's arrival!;) I agree the EU isnt perfect but I personally dont think the risks/unknows of the alternatives are worth it......

 

[SWP's back]

Thanks for your open and honest reply mate!;) sadly politics is alot harder to discuss that Pep's arrival!;) I agree the EU isnt perfect but I personally dont think the risks/unknows of the alternatives are worth it......

And that's a fair opinion to hold and you have as many votes as I have.

If I didn't work in the industry I do then I may vote a different way. The good thing is that each person in this thread, whatever their view, is actually giving the question some thought unlike many of the apathetic populace of the U.K. Who think the whole thing interrupts their Xfactor viewing.