EU referendum

[willipp]

I've honestly no idea how to vote on this, i don't like being lied to and i know both sides are lying to me. Pisses me off

This is what frustrates me on this whole issue, there is no balanced view at all. Most arguments are just statements backed up by no facts, or facts that contradict it from the other viewpoint. Very difficult to make an informed decision when no one seems to know the pro's and cons of both decisions. Im almost at a point where I don't think the public should be voting on a decision that we are so poorly informed on.

 

[Metal Biker]

I've honestly no idea how to vote on this, i don't like being lied to and i know both sides are lying to me. Pisses me off

Just vote how you feel personally about the organisation of the EU itself.

I myself believed in Europe once, but am voting out for these reasons:

TTIP - http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html (It is a 'scaremongering' post, but it does contain the same concerns I have about it and how the EU endorses it despite public criticism and opposition)

Secret plans for a United States of Europe already drawn up - http://presstv.ir/Detail/2016/04/25...pe-deceleration-Britain-EU-Army-German-Dutch/

Formation of "EU Army" taking shape, annexing other member states armed forces personnel - https://next.ft.com/content/e90a080e-107b-11e6-91da-096d89bd2173
(If link does not work, search for "Germany annexing Dutch military regiments".)

All EU countries must adopt Euro by 2020 - http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/uk-will-be...ussels-power-not-reformed-says-report-1453735

Cameron's reforms not yet accepted; will only be voted on until after referendum, only requires 8 states to vote against to be refused and which members are likely to do so - http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/europe-responds-to-camerons-eu-reform-proposals/

There are a number of other reasons aswell, but for me these are the main sticking points. I want the UK to join the EEA or EFTA at worst and am prepared to see Britain take some financial hit within the first 5 years if it means an end to the political union, but allows us to conduct trade deals with the other 160 or so countries as well as forming a trade deal with the EU, like Norway, Switzerland, Luxembourg and Iceland do and should after a while recover any immediate losses that resulted from leaving the EU. No-one can guarentee this as a certainty, though, but that's where the 'believe in Britain' rhetoric comes from, and I firmly believe this nation has the clout, determination and connections that will mean there will be no long term 'damage' to our economy or security.

Many in Europe want the Federal Europe and to do away with 'national identities' vis-a-vis the Soviet Union. Voices in Denmark and the Netherlands have stated that if Britain does leave, they want out of the EU as well. So at the moment there is no one side with a clear advantage in the debate and I can understand how annoyed about the whole discussion you can be considering how both sides have behaved. It could come down to yourself personally on whether or not you believe in the European Dream or stand by the idea of British self-determination.

 

[smudgedj]

The thing that is totally ignored by Brexitera is just how many companies in the rest of the EU are planning now and ready to try and replace the British goods that become too expensive with tariffs.

Meanwhile the British public is looking forward to replacing champagne with sparkling Colombian, Mercedes with Great Wall and French and German energy with power cuts. It is the opportunity cost that really matters . Europe has 20+ countries to fill the gap within the group

Comedy gold from Australia.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Seeing as we're all 'Little Englanders' and too puny and inconsequential to be able to govern ourselves, I'm certain that
the French And Germans will not give a flying fuck how we vote. After all, they've got the powerhouses of Bulgaria, Romania, Latvia,
Estonia and Greece within their club, so why do they need a tiny snivelling no mark, moaning shower like us?

 

[west didsblue]

Just vote how you feel personally about the organisation of the EU itself.

I myself believed in Europe once, but am voting out for these reasons:

TTIP - http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html (It is a 'scaremongering' post, but it does contain the same concerns I have about it and how the EU endorses it despite public criticism and opposition)

Secret plans for a United States of Europe already drawn up - http://presstv.ir/Detail/2016/04/25...pe-deceleration-Britain-EU-Army-German-Dutch/

Formation of "EU Army" taking shape, annexing other member states armed forces personnel - https://next.ft.com/content/e90a080e-107b-11e6-91da-096d89bd2173
(If link does not work, search for "Germany annexing Dutch military regiments".)

All EU countries must adopt Euro by 2020 - http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/uk-will-be...ussels-power-not-reformed-says-report-1453735

Cameron's reforms not yet accepted; will only be voted on until after referendum, only requires 8 states to vote against to be refused and which members are likely to do so - http://openeurope.org.uk/today/blog/europe-responds-to-camerons-eu-reform-proposals/

There are a number of other reasons aswell, but for me these are the main sticking points. I want the UK to join the EEA or EFTA at worst and am prepared to see Britain take some financial hit within the first 5 years if it means an end to the political union, but allows us to conduct trade deals with the other 160 or so countries as well as forming a trade deal with the EU, like Norway, Switzerland, Luxembourg and Iceland do and should after a while recover any immediate losses that resulted from leaving the EU. No-one can guarentee this as a certainty, though, but that's where the 'believe in Britain' rhetoric comes from, and I firmly believe this nation has the clout, determination and connections that will mean there will be no long term 'damage' to our economy or security.

Many in Europe want the Federal Europe and to do away with 'national identities' vis-a-vis the Soviet Union. Voices in Denmark and the Netherlands have stated that if Britain does leave, they want out of the EU as well. So at the moment there is no one side with a clear advantage in the debate and I can understand how annoyed about the whole discussion you can be considering how both sides have behaved. It could come down to yourself personally on whether or not you believe in the European Dream or stand by the idea of British self-determination.

Norway and Iceland are in the EEA which means they have to follow most of the EU rules anyway. Switzerland, although not formally in the EEA have a series of bilateral agreements so that it amounts to the same thing. All are part of Schengen. Luxembourg are in the EU, I'm guessing you meant Liechtenstein. Being in the EEA without being in the EU means you have to abide by most EU rules without a say in formulating them.

 

[Metal Biker]

Norway and Iceland are in the EEA which means they have to follow most of the EU rules anyway. Switzerland, although not formally in the EEA have a series of bilateral agreements so that it amounts to the same thing. All are part of Schengen. Luxembourg are in the EU, I'm guessing you meant Liechtenstein. Being in the EEA without being in the EU means you have to abide by most EU rules without a say in formulating them.

Rules regarding trade, nothing else.

Norway, Switzerland and Iceland still have what I consider much more important; self determination. The EU holds no power over their elected governments. China, Canada, India, Brazil, South Korea Mexico all have to abide by EU rules regarding trade, which is all I want this country to do with Europe. They cannot force them to adopt the Euro, provide troops for their EU Army, or accept EU citizens. Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Germany, Norway, and Sweden have recently imposed temporary border controls so it's not as if the schengen agreement is an ironclad stipulation. My main 'fear' is that even if Britain chooses to remain there is nothing guarenteeing any of the other EU member states holding their own referendums (Denmark, Netherlands and Poland have the the most vocal besides us) and leaving making the EU weaker, keeping us part of a union that would fall apart around us. In my view, saying yes to the EU means saying yes to more integration, not co-operation. Some people want it, i'm one who doesn't.

And yes, I meant Liechtenstein :)

 

[Metal Biker]

Seeing as we're all 'Little Englanders' and too puny and inconsequential to be able to govern ourselves, I'm certain that
the French And Germans will not give a flying fuck how we vote. After all, they've got the powerhouses of Bulgaria, Romania, Latvia,
Estonia and Greece within their club, so why do they need a tiny snivelling no mark, moaning shower like us?

This is what I find puzzling too. For all their attempts to convince Britain to remain, voices in France and Germany haven't exactly made us feel welcomed imo. I don't feel like Britain is a 'member' of the EU, just a participant and our constant disapproval of the EU's attempts to create a Federal Europe are being seen by the EU as 'stifling progress' or 'not being a team player'. It's as if our views on what the EU should be are being undermined and treated with disrespect. A sense of "get on board or f*ck off!" attitude.

Well after 6 years of uhming and ahing, I choose to f*ck off.

 

[ali benarbia's studs]

i love our european brothers and sisters but each to their own. one rule would be just too easy to infiltrate by evil third parties. we need to put europe in its place first. people before power.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Can I make a suggestion? Why don't the people who have already made up their minds go off and waste their time somewhere else? I am not be flippant - I am genuinely struggling to see why if your mind is made up, you'd want to waste your time here? if your mind is made up and you are voting a certain way, no matter what, inviting debate about various points is a complete waste of time. We have people on here (and in my opinion mainly on the Brexit side) who will claim black is white or visa versa as needs be to justify their emotional decision. Honestly I have no problem with that. If people are so convinced one way or the other then fine. If they want to make up facts and completely disregard others, that's also fine. But it's not at all helpful for those who's minds are not made up.

I fall into that latter camp. I can see huge disadvantages in leaving. I see huge problems in staying as well. I'd like to understand the relative pros and cons of each so I can make up my mind. Dogmatists endlessly repeating (usually unsustainable) arguments to justify their position adds nothing I thing.

 

[Metal Biker]

Can I make a suggestion? Why don't the people who have already made up their minds go off and waste their time somewhere else? I am not be flippant - I am genuinely struggling to see why if your mind is made up, you'd want to waste your time here? if your mind is made up and you are voting a certain way, no matter what, inviting debate about various points is a complete waste of time. We have people on here (and in my opinion mainly on the Brexit side) who will claim black is white or visa versa as needs be to justify their emotional decision. Honestly I have no problem with that. If people are so convinced one way or the other then fine. If they want to make up facts and completely disregard others, that's also fine. But it's not at all helpful for those who's minds are not made up.

I fall into that latter camp. I can see huge disadvantages in leaving. I see huge problems in staying as well. I'd like to understand the relative pros and cons of each so I can make up my mind. Dogmatists endlessly repeating (usually unsustainable) arguments to justify their position adds nothing I thing.

Take your own advice.