EU referendum

[Helmet Cole]

No one knows what will happen as no one can know. It's never been done before but the UK would have two years to sort things out.

I am more than likely to vote IN for the very selfish reason that it will be easier on my clients investments in the short term (markets don't mind good or bad news but hate uncertainty - so it makes my job easier), but I don't like the way the EU is going and feel here as good a place as any to forward my view.

I'm a europhile by nature, I'm in favour of free movement of labour, immigration doesn't both me in the least, but an unelectable Federal European Government is a ghastly idea and I hope for a close vote to spook the Germans into shying away from further Federalist Union.

I think you are probably so linking up the feelings of quite a few in and out voters there tbh.

 

[Corky]

The EU is more democratic than the UK with the Parliament voted directly and Council indirectly (more than the house of Lords), with a wonderful Commission coming up with all the ideas acting as an independent supra-national body for the good of everyone.

 

[SWP's back]

The EU is more democratic than the UK with the Parliament voted directly and Council indirectly (more than the house of Lords), with a wonderful Commission coming up with all the ideas acting as an independent supra-national body for the good of everyone.

It's not democratic for the people of the U.K. Though (who've been in Union for 300 years)

The whole of the U.K. Can vote one way and not make the slightest jot of difference. You can say the same about Manchester voting one way or Scotland but they got to hold a referendum as well.

 

[SWP's back]

I think you are probably so linking up the feelings of quite a few in and out voters there tbh.

I do try and be serious every few years for an evening, just to keep people on their toes.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Not worth arguing if you can't pick out where I'm wrong you mean.

There's also a difference between "something I've read" and "something I had to study".

Also says a lot when I take the time to explain something and you can't be arsed to reply. Especially when arguing from the same side, just disputing the timings.

Hi SWP's back

Just a couple of points from me in response to your helpful posts:

a) there is usually a run up period to an economic recession.

b) we were in recession in the latter months of 1973 that was clearly influenced by factors that preceded our Common Market membership
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2009/nov/25/gdp-uk-1948-growth-economy

 

[Corky]

It's not democratic for the people of the U.K. Though (who've been in Union for 300 years)

The whole of the U.K. Can vote one way and not make the slightest jot of difference. You can say the same about Manchester voting one way or Scotland but they got to hold a referendum as well.

Did we lose our veto powers? We don't have to adopt everything either, like the treaty of Maastricht which led to the EU being formed and the whole Social Chapter/Charter thing. Whatever happens all EU laws still have to be passed through the UK Parliament or not.

 

[SWP's back]

Hi SWP's back

Just a couple of points from me in response to your helpful posts:

a) there is usually a run up period to an economic recession.

b) we were in recession in the latter months of 1973 that was clearly influenced by factors that preceded our Common Market membership
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2009/nov/25/gdp-uk-1948-growth-economy

So you're in agreement that the UK had strong economic growth when we joined the EEC and were the 5th largest economy in the world at the time?

http://countryeconomy.com/gdp?year=1973

And that we fell into our first recession (albeit very brief) of the decade after joining the EEC?

 

[SWP's back]

Did we lose our veto powers? We don't have to adopt everything either, like the treaty of Maastricht which led to the EU being formed and the whole Social Chapter/Charter thing. Whatever happens all EU laws still have to be passed through the UK Parliament or not.

Can we veto TTIP?

Better yet, can we see the full terms of it? Or can it be debated in open session?

 

[sir baconface]

Not worth arguing if you can't pick out where I'm wrong you mean.

There's also a difference between "something I've read" and "something I had to study".

Also says a lot when I take the time to explain something and you can't be arsed to reply. Especially when arguing from the same side, just disputing the timings.

I'll assume your stats are correct but they don't paint the full picture. The 1970s figures represented some considerable relative decline since, say, the 1950s.

http://www.economist.com/node/13315108

That decline was characterised, as I say, by shit quality and shit industrial relations by the early 1970s. If you challenge that, you are the one who is wrong. I lived through it and don't need an economics degree to know what I saw. Even though I happen to have one.

Those were my central points.

 

[cibaman]

So you're in agreement that the UK had strong economic growth when we joined the EEC and were the 5th largest economy in the world at the time?

http://countryeconomy.com/gdp?year=1973

And that we fell into our first recession (albeit very brief) of the decade after joining the EEC?

My memory of that period is that we were just very badly prepared to deal with the oil crisis. I didn't think the Common Market / EEC had much of an impact either way until the mid 80s.

 

[Corky]

Can we veto TTIP?

Better yet, can we see the full terms of it? Or can it be debated in open session?

I believe all states would need to sign up to it, so yes in effect.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

So you're in agreement that the UK had strong economic growth when we joined the EEC and were the 5th largest economy in the world at the time?

http://countryeconomy.com/gdp?year=1973

And that we fell into our first recession (albeit very brief) of the decade after joining the EEC?

I wasn't going to labour the point but if you understand economics as well as you say then you know we were heading towards recession (albeit briefly) before we joined the EEC.

We may well have had the 5th largest economy when we joined but if our economy wasn't doing very well at the time your point isn't a particularly strong one. Fifth today might sound good but 5th in 1973 was probably pretty ordinary!

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Can we veto TTIP?

Better yet, can we see the full terms of it? Or can it be debated in open session?

TTIP is pretty much up in the air at the moment. Our Givernment has already promised to block it from including our Health Service. The French had already insisted that their film industry would be exempt!

 

[sir baconface]

TTIP is pretty much up in the air at the moment. Our Givernment has already promised to block it from including our Health Service. The French had already insisted that their til industry would be exempt!

Is til a typo, mate, or am I not catching onto something?

 

[hilts]

TTIP even being discussed by Europe is a disgrace, but even as a firm brexiter I have to admit even it we leave the tories would be all over this like a rash. Thank god people have found out in time to hopefully stop it dead.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Did we lose our veto powers? We don't have to adopt everything either, like the treaty of Maastricht which led to the EU being formed and the whole Social Chapter/Charter thing. Whatever happens all EU laws still have to be passed through the UK Parliament or not.

We still have our rights / responsibilities from Maastrict Treaty.

However, if we tried to unilaterally remove ourselves from the Maastricht Treaty(following a Brexit vote) without seeing through the negotiations with the EU then we would risk being subject to Direct affect from the Articles in the Treaty of Rome. What this would mean in Practice (if enforced) is that some of the flexibilities / derogations we had negotiated into Directives would no longer apply eg compensatory rest provisions the European Working Time Directive. So even if we vote out, we will still need to work closely with the European Commission and other Member States until our exit / to minimise additional risks.

As I've said before on here, there are pros and cons of EU membership but another piece of information from the Brexiters is that we couldn't consider the EU's power to make legislation during the 1975 referendum. The reality is that the power to establish the European Commission came into affect in January of Rome through the Treaty of Rome / Treaty of the European Economic Community!

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Is til a typo, mate, or am I not catching onto something?

Thanks sir Baconface. It should have been film industry.

I think the symbol for the French campaign was Asterix the Gaul!

 

[Corky]

We still have our rights / responsibilities from Maastrict Treaty.

However, if we tried to unilaterally remove ourselves from the Maastricht Treaty(following a Brexit vote) without seeing through the negotiations with the EU then we would risk being subject to Direct affect from the Articles in the Treaty of Rome. What this would mean in Practice (if enforced) is that some of the flexibilities / derogations we had negotiated into Directives would no longer apply eg compensatory rest provisions the European Working Time Directive. So even if we vote out, we will still need to work closely with the European Commission and other Member States until our exit / to minimise additional risks.

As I've said before on here, there are pros and cons of EU membership but another piece of information from the Brexiters is that we couldn't consider the EU's power to make legislation during the 1975 referendum. The reality is that the power to establish the European Commission came into affect in January of Rome through the Treaty of Rome / Treaty of the European Economic Community!

I understand, leaving the EU doesn't mean all the treaties we signed up are automatically void or voidable overnight.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

I understand, leaving the EU doesn't mean all the treaties we signed up are automatically void or voidable overnight.

That's true.

Although much of the EU laws have passed into UK legislation through regulations etc, there would be a lot of work for the lawyers even before we got on to Gove's and Bojo's ideas like a new immigration points system for Europeans.

 

[sir baconface]

Just sharing this article on TTIP, which might concern a few on both sides of the in/out debate.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html