EU referendum

[Yaya_Tony]

Ah so it's personal and you're on an ego trip.

That's you making it personal.

Since you go there, I'm on board with chippy. Brexit is pure selfishness.

 

[TonyM]

Another misguided soul.

CB you're like one of those poor stewards holding back the Russian mob with a bit of rope. :-)

 

[SWP's back]

That's you making it personal.

Since you go there, I'm on board with chippy. Brexit is pure selfishness.

Why?

I'm voting in for selfishness. I think most people will vote for selfish reasons either way. But why do you think it's a one way street?

 

[Bill]

I voted out the first time round. I have seen nothing since to make me change my mind. if anything its compounded the worries I had at the time. we've been fucked up the shitter since then.

 

[urban genie]

A Tory party pushing 80 hour weeks would not get elected...

But that's mot what I said, before the directive, in the hospitality trade, a chef for example could by a private business like a hotel be on a rota 12pm - 8pm tuesday - saturday one week then sunday - thurs the next effectively working 10 days consecutively at 8 hrs a day(though these would always turn to 10-12hr days because of business needs).

This was a practice for decades under all governements as was people not getting overtime pay and holidays being fucked about with. The practise still exists, but with the difference that people are now givwn rest time an paid for what they work. Any relaxing of regulations would see business reverting t profitover people and tory ideology suggest they would favour big business wishes over ours, that's not them making you work 80hrs, but they certainly wouldn't condem it if it made cash

 

[YPhrunts]

Sort of but no. You're meant to receive an amount based on what you pay in. However what you pay in doesn't get invested into a pot anywhere, you payments in this June will go to some retired person(s) in July.

Unless you're a Greek whereby your pension will be paid by other states propping up your economy. Always sobers me up to think that Greeks retire at an earlier age than us (used to be 55 if I remember correctly) while we, under austerity measures are now having to work until we are 67.

 

[Yaya_Tony]

Why?

I'm voting in for selfishness. I think most people will vote for selfish reasons either way. But why do you think it's a one way street?

I'm a European. My family survived both world wars and have seen unprecedented levels of peace since. My daughters can travel freely and most young uns want to stay. For me it's a no brainer.

 

[SWP's back]

Unless you're a Greek whereby your pension will be paid by other states propping up your economy. Always sobers me up to think that Greeks retire at an earlier age than us (used to be 55 if I remember correctly) while we, under austerity measures are now having to work until we are 67.

Again sort of, I know of very very few people that rely solely on the state pension.

But yes, if they do, 67 (and rising) it is.

Hence why it's important to put private policies in place.

 

[SWP's back]

I'm a European. My family survived both world wars and have seen unprecedented levels of peace since. My daughters can travel freely and most young uns want to stay. For me it's a no brainer.

That's absolutely fine and I agree with your rationale.

I'm asking why you think voting out is pure selfishness. Your reasoning above could also be stated as being selfish.

 

[BigJoe#1]

You see the entire wording of the post above portrays your closed mind. "pure speculation" not "speculation" for example. And even the word speculation itself, blows your cover. I've heard other people use the word "guess". But there's a huge difference between a guess, speculation and prediction, and calculation. Respected institutions have not just scribbled things on the back of fag packet or thrown darts at the wall, they've looked at the drivers - at what influences the economy - and make calculations and projections based on those inputs. You can't dismiss this as if it's some random stab in the dark, when it isn't.

Likewise "they've been wrong before and they'll be wrong again". Well you would say that wouldn't you, but it's such a hollow statement. Of course they get things wrong, but that doesn't mean they've got THIS wrong and to assume that because they were wrong about something else in the past, therefore they must be wrong about this too, is a lame argument. It's basically the best the Leavers can come up with faced with overwhelming commentary that leaving would be a bad idea. If predicting and calculating and projecting was such a complete waste of time, we'd have to close the met office, close the institute for national studies, replace insurance companies with dummies throwing dice. The reality is you don't like the predictions, that's all.

I think you're a victim of your criticism.

Speculation and opinion, guessing and calculating are the TRUTH are they? They are views, call it what you will, call it anything but the truth because that is the one thing they are not.

To your second point about my "hollow statement". I don't get your meaning. Just because they've got things right before doesn't mean they'll get this right either does it?

Why do you put so much faith in anything such as this I certainly never could. Maybe I'm too cynical.

 

[smudgedj]

I'm a European. My family survived both world wars and have seen unprecedented levels of peace since. My daughters can travel freely and most young uns want to stay. For me it's a no brainer.

Why wouldn´t your daughter be able to travel?

 

[Yaya_Tony]

That's absolutely fine and I agree with your rationale.

I'm asking why you think voting out is pure selfishness. Your reasoning above could also be stated as being selfish.

Nice one Sam mate.
It's just that little Englanders mentality. The thinking that we'd somehow be better alone than working together, when all the evidence points the opposite way.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I think you're a victim of your criticism.

Speculation and opinion, guessing and calculating are the TRUTH are they? They are views, call it what you will, call it anything but the truth because that is the one thing they are not.

To your second point about my "hollow statement". I don't get your meaning. Just because they've got things right before doesn't mean they'll get this right either does it?

Why do you put so much faith in anything such as this I certainly never could. Maybe I'm too cynical.

Too cynical? No, you're WAAAAAAYYYYYY too cynical. Seriously, you and a load of people on here who have a real chip on their shoulder about all these evil politicians out to get them. Honestly, it's quite sad. Maybe you personally don't fall into that camp, but you are too cynical imho.

And you're just playing with words. I didn't say predicting and calculatting are the TRUTH. I said in the absense of the truth, it's the best we've got. None of the respecting economists are "guessing". That implies throwing darts at the wall, or looking at tea leaves and even you must recognise they are not doing that. They are *working it out* as best they can given the data, given previous experiences of other situations.

To dismiss all this as "well it might be right, or it might be wrong" and therefore suggest it's 50-50 either way is just pure bollocks, simply to try to defend an indefensible position.

 

[DelToro]

Nice one Sam mate.
It's just that little Englanders mentality. The thinking that we'd somehow be better alone than working together, when all the evidence points the opposite way.

Read this article. Life is not as simple as you paint it.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/17/britain-working-class-revolt-eu-referendum

 

[TCIB]

Another misguided soul.

Not at all, i have the facts as they are at hand, i just choose to not believe the scaremongering and feel we will do just fine.

If you ran a chemical engineering firm you would know the extra red tape applied to us and the hassle and cost it ensues.
Our wheel was not broke so did not need fixing. This affected and hindered me personally a lot and cost me a lot to the point we had to lay off 2 people for 4 months.
This was 100% eu shit so excuse me for not being as enlightened as your good self.

Either way i feel this thread now serves no purpose other than to offer a platform for mud flinging so i shall go to a silly thread in off topic cheers ladies and gents (drops mic)

 

[SWP's back]

Nice one Sam mate.
It's just that little Englanders mentality. The thinking that we'd somehow be better alone than working together, when all the evidence points the opposite way.

So again I'm just playing devils advocate here and opening debate (and I've already voted), but the reasoning for many to vote out has nothing to do with little England but wanting to remain a sovereign state, able to trade with the world, allow in who they wish and not be part of an increasingly federalist super state (much like the Aussie's and Canadian's enjoy).

 

[TCIB]

So again I'm just playing devils advocate here and opening debate (and I've already voted), but the reasoning for many to vote out has nothing to do with little England but wanting to remain a sovereign state, able to trade with the world, allow in who they wish and not be part of an increasingly federalist super state (much like the Aussie's and Canadian's enjoy).

Only this! (ok i really am going now)
A very accurate (to me) and concise post.

 

[Pam]

Nice one Sam mate.
It's just that little Englanders mentality. The thinking that we'd somehow be better alone than working together, when all the evidence points the opposite way.

Stop making sense

 

[BigJoe#1]

Too cynical? No, you're WAAAAAAYYYYYY too cynical. Seriously, you and a load of people on here who have a real chip on their shoulder about all these evil politicians out to get them. Honestly, it's quite sad. Maybe you personally don't fall into that camp, but you are too cynical imho.

And you're just playing with words. I didn't say predicting and calculatting are the TRUTH. I said in the absense of the truth, it's the best we've got. None of the respecting economists are "guessing". That implies throwing darts at the wall, or looking at tea leaves and even you must recognise they are not doing that. They are *working it out* as best they can given the data, given previous experiences of other situations.

To dismiss all this as "well it might be right, or it might be wrong" and therefore suggest it's 50-50 either way is just pure bollocks, simply to try to defend an indefensible position.

Sorry mate, that above criticism applies directly to your comments.

You were the one saying the Leavers could not stand the truth, which was the comment that started this area of debate.

If you want to get technical, point me to the truth - not an opinion, not "working it out" but the truth you say the Leavers are in denial over. Quite simple really. It may be pure bollocks in your opinion but is it any more or less bollocks than the opinion of those you quote. I guess the answer to that will depend on your viewpoint. Still you carry on dismissing the views of the Leavers the way you do and will be joining EB2 as the leave campaigns best recruiting sergeants. So, as you were....

 

[smudgedj]

Nice one Sam mate.
It's just that little Englanders mentality. The thinking that we'd somehow be better alone than working together, when all the evidence points the opposite way.

What´s this little englander shite? The brexit lot want to make trade deals with the new American Administration, all the Commonwealth, the Far East and South America. The majority of the world, about 5 billion people. You remain lot wish to stay within europe to hide, remote and isolated inside a piddling little market, 10 times smaller. Only one group are cowardly xenophobes.

Reject negative xenophobic isolationism in the EU. (to paraphrase Obama)

Vote Leave.