EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%
  • Total voters
    1,050
Status
Not open for further replies.
I'm still undecided but respect to to Tim and Metal. Far more logical and eloquant explanations of their positions the the politicians
 
Tim of the Oak said:
Good post mate but it's incorrect. I posted much earlier in the thread how the Germans and French who set up the original Coal and Steel organisation that preceded the Common Market sawvpeace in Europe as a key objectives.

Yes you are right that NATO has played an important role too but the fact that European countries collaborate on trade and other areas makes a war between us and then less likely.

You asked for specific examples of what the EU has done so here you go:

- Strengthened workers rights in terms of equal pay, working time and agency work.
- brought together networks of common interest in science and police investigations etc
- come charges for people travelling across Europe eg mobile phone charges
- encouraged the movement of goods, services and people.

Going back to war issues. I think it is 40 years since the death of Franco and the civil war in Spain and subsequent persecution cost the lives of 500,000 thousand people. The EU has encouraged the development of democracies. NATO didn't lrevent the persecution of Spanish / Catalunian civilians!

It is far from perfect and I have criticisms of it to - but I focussed on answering your questions!
Click to expand...
Britain didn't join the European Coal and Steel Community though, did they, so it's irrelevant bringing it up (especially since the ECSC wasn't responsible for 'peace' in Europe either, just for lowering tariffs on coal...and steel. Which was kind of the point.)

Countries choosing to do business rather than war isn't down to an organisation encouraging it and the EEC only focused on business and trade. If Britain decided it was getting a rough deal from France and decided to go to war would the EEC have stopped it? No, NATO would. If Britain decided to go to war now with a European nation, what would the EU do? Nothing, just as it did with Ukraine. Ukraine is NOT a NATO member either, before you start. But Turkey, ahhh Turkey IS a NATO member, so when tensions flaired up between Russia and Turkey a few months ago there was talk of NATO getting involved, so European nations like Britain, France and Germany, all NATO members, would have had to intervene. The EU would have had NO contribution to those discussions. That's why Ukraine wants to join NATO, so the US, UK, France and Germany will engage with Russia. Ukraine also wants the same from the EU, to distance itself from Russian reliance and bolster it's 'friends' so that the EU NATO countries will come to their aid should Russia invade. So, onto your reasons as to how the EU has brought about peace in Europe, solely by itself as an organisation.

1) Workers rights = peacetime. Riiiight, well it might stop a few riots and strikes from taking place...oh, never mind. Also equal pay has been a part of British law for decades, even before we joined the EEC, since we signed the Equal Pay Act 1970 (we joined the EEC in 1973) so that's inaccurate. Although it has since been updated into the Equality Act of 2010, but the British Parliament orchestrated that, not the EU.

2) Networks of police investigations. Yeaaah, we have Interpol. Interpol. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol And Five Eyes. As for science, Britain has some of the finest universities in the world. Europe? Or more accurately eastern europe? Remember the EU is a collection of ALL its member states so, is someone not pulling their weight in the fields of academic sciences? Well I amy be mistaken, admittedly i've not done much research there.

3) Mobile phone charges have bought peace in Europe?
chuckle-GIF.gif


I'm asking you what changes the EU has made to bring peace in Europe, not what "benefits" the EU as an organisation has brought to the people of Europe (and free mobiles is a very loose one to claim) You think that's all we small 'peasants' care about? Free mobile costs! Cheaper European Flights! Cheap booze and gogglebox on the telly! I can work anywhere in Europe, well book me on a flight to Latvia!

Encouraged goods and movement of goods. YES! THAT is that the EEC was meant to be! And what nations like Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liectenstein only WANT Europe to be. NOT a political entity which seeks nations of Europe to surrender their sovereignty to an unelected power.

No, NATO didn not prevent the execution of Spanish civilians in the Civil War because;-
A) Spain wasn't signed up to NATO during the Spanish Civil War, it joined in 1982
and B) NATO didn't exist until 1949, more than a decade after Franco gained power and whose reign ended in '75. It is also worth mentioning that most of these executions took place even before NATO existed, and there was also something bigger and more important happening at the time, like ending Nazi Tyranny.

So to summarise...you cannot provide anything that, without intervention from NATO, proves that the EU has been the sole, driving force behind peace in Europe. At least nothing that has convinced me.
 
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Whatever your view, you have to respect the founding fathers of the EU for foreseeing we'd all have mobile phones now.
 
I'm going to get my toddlers ears pierced before the fucking EU make up rules about inappropriately dressed children.
 
Helmet Cole said:
Whatever your view, you have to respect the founding fathers of the EU for foreseeing we'd all have mobile phones now.
Click to expand...
And cheaper flights to Europe!

Where would we be without the cheaper flights to Europe?
 
Mëtal Bikër said:
Britain didn't join the European Coal and Steel Community though, did they, so it's irrelevant bringing it up (especially since the ECSC wasn't responsible for 'peace' in Europe either, just for lowering tariffs on coal...and steel. Which was kind of the point.)

Countries choosing to do business rather than war isn't down to an organisation encouraging it and the EEC only focused on business and trade. If Britain decided it was getting a rough deal from France and decided to go to war would the EEC have stopped it? No, NATO would. If Britain decided to go to war now with a European nation, what would the EU do? Nothing, just as it did with Ukraine. Ukraine is NOT a NATO member either, before you start. But Turkey, ahhh Turkey IS a NATO member, so when tensions flaired up between Russia and Turkey a few months ago there was talk of NATO getting involved, so European nations like Britain, France and Germany, all NATO members, would have had to intervene. The EU would have had NO contribution to those discussions. That's why Ukraine wants to join NATO, so the US, UK, France and Germany will engage with Russia. Ukraine also wants the same from the EU, to distance itself from Russian reliance and bolster it's 'friends' so that the EU NATO countries will come to their aid should Russia invade. So, onto your reasons as to how the EU has brought about peace in Europe, solely by itself as an organisation.

1) Workers rights = peacetime. Riiiight, well it might stop a few riots and strikes from taking place...oh, never mind. Also equal pay has been a part of British law for decades, even before we joined the EEC, since we signed the Equal Pay Act 1970 (we joined the EEC in 1973) so that's inaccurate. Although it has since been updated into the Equality Act of 2010, but the British Parliament orchestrated that, not the EU.

2) Networks of police investigations. Yeaaah, we have Interpol. Interpol. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interpol And Five Eyes. As for science, Britain has some of the finest universities in the world. Europe? Or more accurately eastern europe? Remember the EU is a collection of ALL its member states so, is someone not pulling their weight in the fields of academic sciences? Well I amy be mistaken, admittedly i've not done much research there.

3) Mobile phone charges have bought peace in Europe?
chuckle-GIF.gif


I'm asking you what changes the EU has made to bring peace in Europe, not what "benefits" the EU as an organisation has brought to the people of Europe (and free mobiles is a very loose one to claim) You think that's all we small 'peasants' care about? Free mobile costs! Cheaper European Flights! Cheap booze and gogglebox on the telly! I can work anywhere in Europe, well book me on a flight to Latvia!

Encouraged goods and movement of goods. YES! THAT is that the EEC was meant to be! And what nations like Norway, Switzerland, Iceland and Liectenstein only WANT Europe to be. NOT a political entity which seeks nations of Europe to surrender their sovereignty to an unelected power.

No, NATO didn not prevent the execution of Spanish civilians in the Civil War because;-
A) Spain wasn't signed up to NATO during the Spanish Civil War, it joined in 1982
and B) NATO didn't exist until 1949, more than a decade after Franco gained power and whose reign ended in '75. It is also worth mentioning that most of these executions took place even before NATO existed, and there was also something bigger and more important happening at the time, like ending Nazi Tyranny.

So to summarise...you cannot provide anything that, without intervention from NATO, proves that the EU has been the sole, driving force behind peace in Europe. At least nothing that has convinced me.
Click to expand...

We didn't need to join the ECSC. Germany attacked France in both World Wars and we fought alongside France. The important point is the alliance between France and Germany.

1. The Equal Pay Act in the UK was a poor imitation of the stronger interpretations from the ECJ that referred back to the Treaty of Rome to decide on intentions. I could write you essays on this but don't want to bore the rest of Bluemoon to death. Look at the Enderby Case for further info.

2. NATO was formed in the late 40s, Franco's atrocities against the Spanish people continued well into the 50s. The crimes had an impact beyond the Spanish borders. So the Hundreds of thousands oof civilian victims of the Spanish Civil War (and following years of persecution) weren't impirtant because Hitler only helped to bomb them. He don't need to invade because he had an ally in Franco.

3 So you tried to mock me about European phone charges when I just said this was a benefit the EU had brought. No this hasn't stopped any wars lol. That said if mobiles had been about and Kaiser Wilhelm had rang his cousin George before attacking France (to clarify whether Britain would enter the War) the First World War might not have happened and the post war depression in Germany that les to Hitler's rise might not have happened!

In summary, you are looking a little bit silly misrepresenting my points lol!
 
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