A brief glimpse of God and Creation

[Skashion]

That pre-supposes that the state is secular, which it isn't

and even if it was, churchgoers pay taxes like anyone.

You want to put a red circle round aspects of state responsibility and deny alternative voluntary sources.

I think his question is loaded specifically because of his usage of the "my" word as if by implication he can pay them and then specify how the money is to be spent.

First good point I've ever seen you make actually. Thanks for being so honest about how you know you're wrong but tough shit, this state isn't secular.

Yes, they do, but they're not denied entry into non-religious schools are they? That's the difference. It's a very simple point.

No, voluntary funding is fine, religious or non-religious.

That still doesn't make it loaded as per the point above. You both pay the same taxes but you get more option for the bizarre reason that you believe something. Bring on the atheist schools then I say and exclude anyone who's religious or theist.

 

[pauldominic]

bulgarian pride was bang on the money

Paul you got a lot to learn from this
<a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2 ... ger_effect</a>
and your reply to him endorsed the fact beautifully

and you dare to talk irony

any credence given to you went many moons ago

au contraire.

I've never claimed to be anything special or over-confident or any of those things.

I frequently wonder whether I have too many misunderstandings with BP.

At one point I'm agreeing with him on things like indoctrination and then all of a sudden he turns on me.

He also thought I was patronising him on one occasion when I wasn't doing anything of the sort.

It's okay paul. I am very cryptic and easily misunderstood.
When you "derive" why 1/x never equals zero, then that to me sounds and looks like you are trying to patronize me. .

I ask again, why bring your software engineering background to a religious thread? I am quite interested in the stuff you've done, honestly, but this is not thread for it.

Thats a fair point. Initially it was a defence of myself because I have science based qualifications from 1979 to 1984 and immediately got a job in 1984 because of my knowledge of fortran based on my final year project.

People jumped on me because I'd forgotten the things I'd studied even down to some huge topic areas.

I've found sometimes that moments of inspiration especially as an engineer come during the middle of the night.

In fact on one occasion I got dressed and drove to work - timescale pressure and excess of enthusiasm.

 

[BulgarianPride]

I've found sometimes that moments of inspiration especially as an engineer come during the middle of the night.

I agree.

 

[pauldominic]

That pre-supposes that the state is secular, which it isn't

and even if it was, churchgoers pay taxes like anyone.

You want to put a red circle round aspects of state responsibility and deny alternative voluntary sources.

I think his question is loaded specifically because of his usage of the "my" word as if by implication he can pay them and then specify how the money is to be spent.

First good point I've ever seen you make actually. Thanks for being so honest about how you know you're wrong but tough shit, this state isn't secular.

Yes, they do, but they're not denied entry into non-religious schools are they? That's the difference. It's a very simple point.

No, voluntary funding is fine, religious or non-religious.

That still doesn't make it loaded as per the point above. You both pay the same taxes but you get more option for the bizarre reason that you believe something. Bring on the atheist schools then I say and exclude anyone who's religious or theist.

Hahahahahaha

Go for it.

You could have Richard come as a peripatetic travelling lecturer to brainwash the bunnies^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hvictims^H^H^H^H^Hpupils.

Hahahahahahaha

How about someone starting a thread about what an atheist school would look like?

 

[Skashion]

Hahahahahaha

Go for it.

You could have Richard come as a peripatetic travelling lecturer to brainwash the bunnies^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hvictims^H^H^H^H^Hpupils.

Hahahahahahaha

How about someone starting a thread about what an atheist school would look like?

Just trying to point out the absurdity of it all. Glad to see you're your usual reasonable self and have tried to engage in genuine dialogue.

What would it look like? Based on what I've said. Erm, no outwardly religious or theist beliefs would be allowed. No religious education. No school prayers. Basically no reference to religion. Apart from that, same as any other school.

I'd get Richard Dawkins in? Have you even seen my posts on the man? Try to stop putting everyone into convenient little boxes for a change. Don't like Hitchens either so he's out as well.

 

[tonea2003]

Still ignoring my post showing that children don't necessarily have to be indoctrinated to the church as you have no answer.

As normal.

When you're outnumbered 10-1 and the only Catholic on BM prepared to defend the church it gets difficult.

The answer to this is obvious.

From the day children are born they are subject to influence from other people in their life.

Atheists make claims to all sorts of things including education. As an atheist friend puts it.

"Why should my taxes go to subsidise church schools"?

A very loaded question. Actually its the other way round.

It is a state responsibility to provide an education and churches volunteer to provide extra funding. My parish has a levy placed on it from the secondary school for every child from our geographical parish regardless of whether they come to church or not.

To answer your question, the atheist position on this is that Children should be presented with facts about all the major religions and left to make a decision.

That would be ok except that its not an intellectual decision.
Its an investment of the heart and soul.

I don't have the slightest problem with children being brought up attending church schools.

it absolutely must be or else it becomes indoctrination and it is vitally important to make your own mind up on something that currently cannot be proven one way or another.

 

[pauldominic]

Hahahahahaha

Go for it.

You could have Richard come as a peripatetic travelling lecturer to brainwash the bunnies^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hvictims^H^H^H^H^Hpupils.

Hahahahahahaha

How about someone starting a thread about what an atheist school would look like?

Just trying to point out the absurdity of it all. Glad to see you're your usual reasonable self and have tried to engage in genuine dialogue.

What would it look like? Based on what I've said. Erm, no outwardly religious or theist beliefs would be allowed. No religious education. No school prayers. Basically no reference to religion. Apart from that, same as any other school.

I'd get Richard Dawkins in? Have you even seen my posts on the man? Try to stop putting everyone into convenient little boxes for a change. Don't like Hitchens either so he's out as well.

Fair point again, but with the City sense of humour, we have such good fun with a thread like that.

 

[Skashion]

Fair point again, but with the City sense of humour, we have such good fun with a thread like that.

Been having far too much fun in the rag parade thread to bother anywhere else. Today's been piss funny.

 

[pauldominic]

Still ignoring my post showing that children don't necessarily have to be indoctrinated to the church as you have no answer.

As normal.

When you're outnumbered 10-1 and the only Catholic on BM prepared to defend the church it gets difficult.

The answer to this is obvious.

From the day children are born they are subject to influence from other people in their life.

Atheists make claims to all sorts of things including education. As an atheist friend puts it.

"Why should my taxes go to subsidise church schools"?

A very loaded question. Actually its the other way round.

It is a state responsibility to provide an education and churches volunteer to provide extra funding. My parish has a levy placed on it from the secondary school for every child from our geographical parish regardless of whether they come to church or not.

To answer your question, the atheist position on this is that Children should be presented with facts about all the major religions and left to make a decision.

That would be ok except that its not an intellectual decision.
Its an investment of the heart and soul.

I don't have the slightest problem with children being brought up attending church schools.

it absolutely must be or else it becomes indoctrination and it is vitally important to make your own mind up on something that currently cannot be proven one way or another.

How can an atheist avoid influencing his Children?

My atheist friend has indoctrinated his boys into supporting Blackburn Rovers.

That will be a problem if they develop any talents that require leaving home and God bless them anyway..

-- Mon May 30, 2011 7:49 pm --

Fair point again, but with the City sense of humour, we have such good fun with a thread like that.

Been having far too much fun in the rag parade thread to bother anywhere else. Today's been piss funny.

Fair point again.

EDIT: I was mowing the Lawn and totally forgot about their parade.

 

[ElanJo]

In my opinion, except for exclusive religious state-maintained schools, no, schools do not teach the word of God. They teach about many religions, their traditions, customs and teachings etc. and do not endorse one over the other or over atheism, agnosticism, humanism etc. At the same time schools also teach big bang and evolution.

You'll probably find that Primary Schools are different. I didn't go to a religious school but we had prayers and shit in assembly and were read the Bible.

From my old Primary School's prospectus:

Religious Education
Religious Education is the search for meaning and fulfilment in life and pupils’
personal experiences of this search. This process is enriched by developing
insight and experience of various faiths.
Assemblies and RE lessons are based mainly on the Christian faith and the
development of a moral framework. Knowledge, beliefs and understanding are
developed by comparing the Christian faith with other world religions. Religious
Education should make a significant contribution to the school’s spiritual and
multicultural curriculum and its ethos.
Parents can withdraw their child from the daily Act of Collective Worship
(assemblies) on religious grounds, following consultation with the Headteacher.

I doubt that it's all that more enlightened elsewhere in the country. It's too ingrained and easy to fall back on using religion for creating a moral framework.

The National Curriculum Core Subjects are:
• English
• Mathematics
• Science
• ICT
• Religious Education

It's a bad joke that Religious Education is one of the 5. If the 5th one was Philosophy we'd be far better off.

-- Tue May 31, 2011 2:18 pm --

i believe its naive to think we're on earth just by co-incidence.

Indeed, isn't is a very strange co-incidence that we need oxygen to survive and there appears to be plenty of it around!

How can we make sense of this? Isn't it about time we understood this?





Oh Hang on...

-- Tue May 31, 2011 2:23 pm --

It amazes me how people have developed such a misguided and warped opinion of Religion, Christianity and the Catholic church.

For your benefit I shall repeat myself again.

Child abuse is a consequence of evolution.
Child abusers are devious people who never had the vocation to the priesthood, but targetted it as an opportunity to pursue their deviant behaviour.
The church took a few years to get to grips with the scandal, develop a policy and implement it round the world but it has been now.

You talk a lot of shit.

-- Tue May 31, 2011 2:31 pm --

What does this mean?

Paul you got a lot to learn from this
<a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2 ... ger_effect</a>

Read it well. Hold on you are probably already an expert on it. Don't mind me then.

I read the first sentence and dismissed him.

Have you ever heard of the cold war?

I've had a very good career working in defence of the west against the soviet union of which bulgaria was part of.

How is life since the berlin wall collapsed?

I may have missed something, I thought we were talking about child abuse about a page and a half ago?

<a class="postlink" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derailment_%28thought_disorder%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derailment ... isorder%29</a>

In a mild manifestation, this thought disorder is characterized by slippage of ideas further and further from the point of a discussion. Some of the synonyms given above (loosening of association, asyndetic thinking) are used by some authors to refer just to a loss of goal: discourse that sets off on a particular idea, wanders off and never returns to it. A related term is tangentiality—it refers to off-the-point, oblique or irrelevant answers given to questions.