Another new Brexit thread

[Saddleworth2]

I see that the EU are demonstrating their consistency - they never miss the opportunity to use a crisis to cement further their strategies of integration and the taking of more powers.

The recent exchanges about the fragility of the EU - as exposed by the links shared by @Saddleworth2 - are relevant when you consider how the EU commission's proposals could/will develop. It will only take one major beneficiary nation to drop out - Italy? - or conversely one benefactor to block the plans - Germany? and the fault lines will fracture.

Quite perverse really - the situation used to be the rich northern nations - particularly Germany benefitting from the poorer southern ones getting more and more bitter as they became further and further in debt to the northern banks.

Now the poorer nations will be lobbying for a higher and higher level of EU borrowing and for the funding to be distributed via grants rather than loans - and whilst recovery from the dreadful Covid-19 pandemic will be the justification - it will not be a one-off - in fact it cannot be.

The current situation seems to be reaching a point of explosion/implosion - and I suspect the tipping point will be reached at a future point when Germany and other northern nations block future proposals for borrowing levels. If the money is distributed in grants - why would the poorer nations ever reform? They are incapable of doing so anyway.

Thankfully/hopefully - and against all the odds when viewed from a few years ago - the UK will be able to observe from a relative and increasingly safe distance.

To use the recent sinking ship analogies - we could soon be grateful to be in a lifeboat, but I hope we break really free of EU controls so the equivalent becomes akin to the UK being in the safer position of being on board the Carpathia before the implosion happens.

This from Irish media:

"......Ms von der Leyen is planning an audacious bid for new powers as she seeks to put her institution at the centre of efforts to revive the European economy, asking member states for unprecedented latitude to raise funds in the markets. But the former German defence minister faces the central test of her short presidency as she seeks to bridge bitter splits within the EU over the plan."

https://www.irishtimes.com/business...e-an-existential-threat-in-covid-19-1.4256427

As Friedrich Nietzsche said “That which does not kill us, makes us stronger.”
That may apply to the EU.
If they can get through Coronavirus.......
I did say 'if' though.

 

[stonerblue]

That's right mate, cos it's the leave side that have been talking down to people for 4 years plus. We're the ones that have been calling people "ignorant", "frightened" , "didn't know what they were voting for".

It was a proponent of leave that asked, on question time, "who will now serve me in Pret"

Course it was. Nothing to see here.

And as for immigrants, unlike you and yours, I'm all in favour of a level playing field for all immigrants. I'll judge someone on the content of his character, not on the content of his passport. If you have skills or abilities the country needs I won't make it easier for you if you are European at the cost of making it harder for you if you're African or Asian. (Or Australian or American etc)

Imagine the scenario at the port of entry:

Q: "what's that sir, you don't speak the language? Do not have any skills? Sorry, is that a European passport? It is? No problem sir, in you come"

"You? You're a what? A highly qualified doctor? You speak the language? You've got some money saved up to help yourself get settled? Marvellous sir, let's have a look at your passport. Oh! Sorry sir? This is a Pakistani passport. Yes, of course you can come in, just join that line over there first please sir we have a few hoops for you to jump through first if you don't mind. There's a good lad"

"What's that sir? Why am I doing this? Why surely thats obvious sir. It's because I'm not a racist"

Fantastic post in which, like me, you advocate open borders across the globe.

 

[stonerblue]

Simple fact

The EU's FOM is inherently discriminatory

Yay, another one for open borders. The idea seems to be gaining some traction on here. Excellent.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

MB's problem is that he's writing history from what he selectively reads rather than lived history. He really can't find any evidence of Euroscepticism in the Labour Party to anything like the way it has riven the Tory party and has ended with loyalty tests (re Brexit) for Tory MPs (essentially to go against their conscience). I had the utmost respect for Tony Benn; when I heard him speak I always (if he hadn't already done it) asked him about his five questions for people in power, and I shared most of his philosophy. But who else of Labour's "big beasts" was for leaving the European Community? (Ha - "big beasts" - how our politics has been diminished since that era...)

The 1992 manifesto was pushing the Social Chapter which the Tories opposed (it covered standards for equal opportunities; working conditions; information and consultation (employers and unions); integration of those excluded from the labour market; social security; dismissals; employee representation).

"We will opt in to the Social Chapter of the new European Treaty and introduce employment standards common in successful economies, including the best health and safety legislation. The existing protection provided for people engaged in especially hazardous work will be retained.

"Women and men must be able to care for their family as well as earn a living. We will give all employees equal rights and status under the law, whether they are full-time or part-time, permanent or temporary. We aim to guarantee every woman in employment the right to 14 weeks' maternity leave on full pay, and to give fathers paternity leave, bringing Britain into line with the better provision elsewhere in the European Community."

It's obvious why the Tories don't like the EU. I'm sorry that Labour Leave voters felt nobody was listening - and I had plenty of (polite) arguments with them in our constituency - but they will regret giving their vote to a party not committed to maintaining rights that being in the EU guaranteed.

The brexit argument crosses party lines which is one reason it's been so divisive - impossible to define as a left v right argument. The tory divisions were responsible for the referendum happening, but labour is equally divided. In the late 90's / early 2000 some of the first serious unrest in the Blair cabinet was caused by the EU debate - when 9/11 came along it was a welcome distraction for Blair from internal arguments around our EU membership.

 

[Metal Biker]

What a stupid reply you dick
Last week was 75 years since VE Day
I wasn’t alive but I sure respect the history behind it

Meh, it's to be expected. :)

It amuses me though as i'm a "millennial", and probably younger than a lot of contributors.

 

[Metal Biker]

Has there ever been a more ignorant post on this subject?

Beggars belief

I think it likely that most Brexit supporters on here are not Tories

The referendum was won for Leave by the support of so many non-Tory voters

The 2019 GE gave the government a landslide due to the shift of traditional non-Tory voters wishing to support Brexit

Utter bullshit

"Brexit was caused by an internal Tory squabble!"
"No it wasn't. It was also endorsed by many Labour advocates for decades beforehand, and here's why..."
"Yeah well, I wasn't born then so I don't care!"

Great isn't it! :)

 

[Vic]

I see that the EU are demonstrating their consistency - they never miss the opportunity to use a crisis to cement further their strategies of integration and the taking of more powers.

The recent exchanges about the fragility of the EU - as exposed by the links shared by @Saddleworth2 - are relevant when you consider how the EU commission's proposals could/will develop. It will only take one major beneficiary nation to drop out - Italy? - or conversely one benefactor to block the plans - Germany? and the fault lines will fracture.

Quite perverse really - the situation used to be the rich northern nations - particularly Germany benefitting from the poorer southern ones getting more and more bitter as they became further and further in debt to the northern banks.

Now the poorer nations will be lobbying for a higher and higher level of EU borrowing and for the funding to be distributed via grants rather than loans - and whilst recovery from the dreadful Covid-19 pandemic will be the justification - it will not be a one-off - in fact it cannot be.

The current situation seems to be reaching a point of explosion/implosion - and I suspect the tipping point will be reached at a future point when Germany and other northern nations block future proposals for borrowing levels. If the money is distributed in grants - why would the poorer nations ever reform? They are incapable of doing so anyway.

Thankfully/hopefully - and against all the odds when viewed from a few years ago - the UK will be able to observe from a relative and increasingly safe distance.

To use the recent sinking ship analogies - we could soon be grateful to be in a lifeboat, but I hope we break really free of EU controls so the equivalent becomes akin to the UK being in the safer position of being on board the Carpathia before the implosion happens.

This from Irish media:

"......Ms von der Leyen is planning an audacious bid for new powers as she seeks to put her institution at the centre of efforts to revive the European economy, asking member states for unprecedented latitude to raise funds in the markets. But the former German defence minister faces the central test of her short presidency as she seeks to bridge bitter splits within the EU over the plan."

https://www.irishtimes.com/business...e-an-existential-threat-in-covid-19-1.4256427

I see that mcfc1632 is demonstrating his consistency - never miss the opportunity to use a crisis to further his hope for the EU to collapse.

How's the pound doing against the Euro? Have we got our AAA status back now we've left the EU?

 

[Vic]

The brexit argument crosses party lines which is one reason it's been so divisive - impossible to define as a left v right argument. The tory divisions were responsible for the referendum happening, but labour is equally divided. In the late 90's / early 2000 some of the first serious unrest in the Blair cabinet was caused by the EU debate - when 9/11 came along it was a welcome distraction for Blair from internal arguments around our EU membership.

<<Citation needed.>>

 

[Vic]

"Brexit was caused by an internal Tory squabble!"
"No it wasn't. It was also endorsed by many Labour advocates for decades beforehand, and here's why..."
"Yeah well, I wasn't born then so I don't care!"

Great isn't it! :)

<<Citation needed>> For any, let alone many.

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

<<Citation needed.>>

There is no proof - twitter wasn't invented then :-)