Arsenal Post Match Thread.

Antonio Conte?


He fucked up in the beginning walking in Mourinio’s path –which resulted to a couple of humiliating defeats, his name being No1 candidate for getting the sack by the bookies (some argue that he actually played his head in the Hull match). Radically changed direction in the process, has managed to cement an effective structure, currently in a winning strike, 7 points ahead of City (6 ahead of Liverpool if they win tonight).

I’m familiar with his work in Italy (Juventus, national team), he is indeed a very capable man. Hardly the same case though. It’s not that his job is much more easier objectively speaking, in terms of squad quality and depth, lack of European football etc. In Conte’s case you have a tactical arrangement suiting available personnel (I would say also suiting the identity of the club) and securing results (so far) –which (results) is the core idea in the Italian / Argentinian approach. Cementing defensive stability is key (and highly significant for his players’ psychology), before exploiting the skills of an extremely competent attacking force. Taking zero risks, killing matches to 0,5-0 if necessary. While people like Guardiola are visionary, introducing new ideas, enhancing the creative aspect of the game etc (Ronald Koeman sums this concept perfectly in his pre-match conference by the way, after the match stating Guardiola’s City was the best team he ever faced as a coach).

Which is a constant battle in the history of football, let’s say effectiveness – results vs innovative ideas – creativity, cautious – defensive minded vs attractive – attacking minded approaches etc. You can find numerous historical analogies. Helenio Herrera has achieved results so his name will always appear in history books. But if you actually try to put his career into a perspective, you’ll probably identify a lot of controvertial stuff (if not a clearly negative influence). On the other hand, a man like Gusztav Sebes failed to win the WC1954, however the team he introduced (national side of Hungary 1950-56) represents a milestone in the progress of the sport. You do a public survey and ask the name of West Germany’s manager in the WC1974, how many will answer? We are talking about a successful manager, a guy who kept that post from 1964 to 1978, in a 14-year tenure! One thing is certain though, you’ll find many many more familiar with Rinus Michels. Who lost that title, sure, still his teams (Ajax, national side of Holland) embody the revolutionary ideas of “total football”. Tele Santana introduced one of the most creative teams in football history in WC1982 (much more creative than the one that won the title in WC1970, as far as I am concerned) and will always be remembered, even though Brazil failed to reach the semi-finals. And so on, and so on, and so on.

What I’m trying to say is that History values ideas that influence the progress of the sport (perhaps even more than results?). In this perspective, Antonio Conte is indeed a man with a strong personality, a strong will. An intelligent man, a good tactician. A worthy opponent. On the other hand, you can argue that Guardiola could perhaps be more flexible in his tactical approach (and if he did, some of City’s results would have been different). But there’s no doubt he has chosen a much more difficult path (exactly as Koeman describes it). His task is way much more complicated. Still, it’s the ideas of people like him that “push” football forward. Introducing new concepts. Exploring new roads. Expanding the limits of football practice in every possible aspect. What inspires Guardiola is the very method to reach an objective. Which is highly important (if not an obsession) in his thinking process. For Guardiola, the way to achieve results matters.
 
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He fucked up in the beginning walking in Mourinio’s path –which resulted to a couple of humiliating defeats, his name being No1 candidate for getting the sack by the bookies (some argue that he actually played his head in the Hull match). Radically changed direction in the process, has managed to cement an effective structure, currently in a winning strike, 7 points ahead of City (6 ahead of Liverpool if they win tonight).

I’m familiar with his work in Italy (Juventus, national team), he is indeed a very capable man. Hardly the same case though. It’s not that his job is much more easier objectively speaking, in terms of squad quality and depth, lack of European football etc. In Conte’s case you have a tactical arrangement suiting available personnel (I would say also suiting the identity of the club) and securing results (so far) –which (results) is the core idea in the Italian / Argentinian approach. Cementing defensive stability is key (and highly significant for his players’ psychology), before exploiting the skills of an extremely competent attacking force. Taking zero risks, killing matches to 0,5-0 if necessary. While people like Guardiola are visionary, introducing new ideas, enhancing the creative aspect of the game etc (Ronald Koeman sums this concept perfectly in his pre-match conference by the way, after the match stating Guardiola’s City was the best team he ever faced as a coach).

Which is a constant battle in the history of football, let’s say effectiveness – results vs innovative ideas – creativity, cautious – defensive minded vs attractive – attacking minded approaches etc. You can find numerous historical analogies. Helenio Herrera has achieved results so his name will always appear in history books. But if you actually try to put his career into a perspective, you’ll probably identify a lot of controvertial stuff (if not a clearly negative influence). On the other hand, a man like Gusztav Sebes failed to win the WC1954, however the team he introduced (national side of Hungary 1950-56) represents a milestone in the progress of the sport. You do a public survey and ask the name of West Germany’s manager in the WC1974, how many will answer? We are talking about a successful manager, a guy who kept that post from 1964 to 1978, in a 14-year tenure! One thing is certain though, you’ll find many many more familiar with Rinus Michels. Who lost that title, sure, still his teams embody the revolutionary ideas of “total football”. Tele Santana introduced one of the most creative teams in football history in WC1982 (much more creative than the one that won the title in WC1970, as far as I am concerned) and will always be remembered, even though Brazil failed to reach the semi-finals. And so on, and so on, and so on.

What I’m trying to say is that History values ideas that influence the progress of the sport (perhaps even more than results?). In this perspective, Antonio Conte is indeed a man with a strong personality, a strong will. An intelligent man, a good tactician. A worthy opponent. On the other hand, you can argue that Guardiola could perhaps be more flexible in his tactical approach (and if he did, some of City’s results would have been different). But there’s no doubt he has chosen a much more difficult path (exactly as Koeman describes it). His task is way much more complicated. Still, it’s the ideas of people like him that “push” football forward. Introducing new concepts. Exploring new roads. Expanding the limits of football practice in every possible aspect. What inspires Guardiola is the very method to reach an objective. Which is highly important (if not an obsession) in his thinking process. For Guardiola, the way to achieve results matters.

For me it's results that matter.

If Pep fails to deliver results he can fuck off.

If he does deliver the required results he'll be my hero.

Simple.
 
My take on the two halves is that the Tarquins tried to match our work rate and pressing, which they pretty much managed for the first half but that and our dominance of possession fucking knackered them. Second half they couldn't or wouldn't bring the game to us and we ran rings round them. Ya Ya's passing had them chasing ghosts and the tight passing in around their box was brilliant. I said to my Dad that those moves have recently led to Kun losing possession but today the ball looked like ours and we were just letting Arsenal have a look and admire it.

It looked to me as though l'Arse decided to do what every visiting team does at Etihad, that is, defend and hope to get a goal at some stage. After they scored, there were nine or ten players behind the ball every time we attacked for the rest of the first half.

And then, when we scored so early in the second, they had no way to play a more adventurous style to try to wrest back the initiative.
 
Keith Hackett in the telegraph is saying that both goals were onside.

Not sure if this is how to post a link, but for what it's worth:-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football...wrong-neither-manchester-citys-goals-against/

Also, I couldn't care less, we're due a bit of luck.

In The Sun (free issue down my way), Mark Halsey says the first was so marginal as to render the decision OK. He judged the second definitely legit. His team were comprehensively beaten whichever way you view it.

Like you, I don't give a fcuk either way. Monsieur Wenger complains even when they are a country mile onside. Whenever his lips move, he's whingeing about some injustice or another. I doubt if anyone takes his post-match flatulence too seriously.
 
For me it's results that matter.

If Pep fails to deliver results he can fuck off.

If he does deliver the required results he'll be my hero.

Simple.


For me, both matter. Equally.

As complicated as it may prove to be, it's the same with Guardiola. Both matter for him too. Equally.

But you shouldn't worry, he agrees with you completely regarding the delivering of results issue, he has admitted it publicly repeatedly. Making it clear he will leave if he fails to deliver. He's not a man who will evade his responsibility. Unlike Mourinho, for example, he has never complained about refs (and he had every right to do so on several occasions), weather conditions (...) or his players (on the contrary, he always protects them).

Simple.
 


Annoys the hell out of me,no excuse to start slow all the time


Yup. It's not wholly about changing the playing personnel as some suggest. Some of the basic disciplines need tightening up, including concentration and covering each other when defenders go up the pitch. Stones has already felt the headmaster's slipper for making the same mistakes over and over again.
 
Yup. It's not wholly about changing the playing personnel as some suggest. Some of the basic disciplines need tightening up, including concentration and covering each other when defenders go up the pitch. Stones has already felt the headmaster's slipper for making the same mistakes over and over again.
It's the mind set,they needs their heads banging together in the tunnel
Dippers will have a field day if we turn up there doing that
 


Annoys the hell out of me,no excuse to start slow all the time

Most frustrating thing is that early season we were starting games really well, playing at a high tempo and pressing brilliantly. We were visibly slowing down in the last 30 mins of some matches but by and large matches were won by then.
 
The press are peddling the line that Arsenal were firmly in control in the first half but wilted in the face of City's second half onslaught, when Gusrdiola realised pretty-pretty football had to give way to good old English physicality to overcome Arsenal's foreign softies. There followed analysis after analysis of how Arsenal were sabotaged by the ref as they threw the game away. This is not the game any of us watched.

Guardiola teams have never simply played pretty-pretty football and City don't. They didn't convert to physicality during halftime either. City play high energy, intense, possession-based pressing football. For 45 minutes yesterday the high energy, the intensity and the pressing were missing. Arsenal's goal was the best example- a full back allowed to run 60 yards, two other players move the ball into our area and Walcott puts it in without a City player getting within 5 yards of any of them! Bravo did what he always seems to do in a one-on-one - go down to his left far too early. It was the missing ingredients which had destroyed United, which had not given Messi & co a sniff for over an hour and which had tortured Chelsea for an hour which came back in the second half.

But Arsenal were beaten tactically as well. The MEN has failed to grasp this by asking what Pep has got against Iheanacho. The answer is - nothing at all. But in Barcelona he left Sergio out for greater solidity in midfield, and yesterday he left out Iheanacho to pack the midfield. I think the explanation is quite simple. Arsenal - like Barcelona- pass the ball well and play through midfield. Pep wanted numerical superiority there to deny Arsenal the ball and marginalise Sanchez and Walcott. Now, this clearly won't work without the intense press. In the second half City pressed in packs, isolated the Arsenal lad with the ball and the Gooners didn't launch an attack of note. But City also had two wide men of frightening pace, who, much of the time, did keep the chalk on their boots. This stretched Arsenal's back line across the pitch but also forced Arsenal to try and counter their pace by dropping ever deeper. Two lines of four in a decent defensive formation gave way to isolated front men unable to link with midfielders unable to keep the ball or shield a beleaguered back four. City's back four, so vulnerable early on, we're given excellent protection because Arsenal were denied time and good ball in midfield and couldn't move it forward, and so our lads could move forward to make interceptions or tackles. We were never turned and no-one was allowed to run at us with the ball.

I think the comeback was a triumph for Silva, KdB, Sané, Sterling and YaYa but most of all for Pep. He drew up the blue print for success but for 45 minutes the lads only put half of it into practice. In the second half we got nearly the whole package and it was impressive. That is Pep's mission - to get us playing Guardiola football for 90 minutes a game, 65 games a season.

Excellent summimg up.
 
Oh bog off.

Arsenal were poor because we absolutely dominated them.

That's the way it works in football. No team has made Arsenal look so poor and devoid of ideas all season.

I won't bog off. It was a fair assessment but it would have been a tougher game against anyone else.

Arsenal were poor at Everton as well.
 
Came over from Thailand for a week and managed to get to Watford and yesterdays game. Thought we were pretty much in control all game, if not a bit laboured in the first half. Apparently though according to Talkshite it was Arsenal's to throw away?? All analysis of the game was from an Arsenal perspective. Utter fucking nonsense.

Shouldn't your username be Thai'dupinblue, then?

;-)
 
Seen a sky report arsenal in control first half, wouldn't like to see them out of control....

The game was always ours, not the best start at all... Silva out of this world and should be motm, KDB brilliant, sane was dangerous and whipped in good crosses capping off a nice finish.. Starlings goal stunning.
 

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