Arsenal thread 2011/12

[zangatangring]

Re: How to solve a problem like Arsenal.

The whole arsenal thing is often overlooked. It's the vicissitudes of fate. Wenger is an admirable manager and probably unbeaten at building youngsters up. It comes with it's costs. Djourou did have spatters of defensive prowess and same with their keeper. It's sheer brilliance that Wenger has been able to bring arsenal this far!!! Sadly, it's a slow process and arsenal's next shot at the big time won't be this season (I think).

 

[Braggster]

Re: How to solve a problem like Arsenal.

I think this'd be a good shout. Maybe not so much a regime change in terms of playing staff, but coaching staff would shake them up the right way? Pat Rice has been there longer than Wenger.

They should hire us as a committee to solve their problems. I'd do it for a tenner an hour.


Anyway, how do you think they'll fare this coming season? They need to sort the Cesc/Nasri situations out ASAP; which will definitely leave them lacking in midfield. Gervinho looks to be a good signing who'll create lots of chances, but they need more creativity through the middle imo.

Cesc/Nasri is bad for them. Oddly I think they could cope technically with losing Cesc (brilliant though he is) as they still have a surfeit of creative, technical passers. They are pretty much the only team in England that could absorb such a blow. However, on a psychological level it would/will be terrible. The team's leader will either have left or (if he stays) be unhappy. And if Nasri stays, everyone knows he will be leaving next year, so how will their other big guns (RvP, Vermaelen, even Wilshere) feel? They will not believe in the squad or the 'project' or, ultimately, senior management, and for a squad which has already show serious mental weakness this is hardly a recipe for success.

And there has been no move to address the fundamental errors in their approach to the game that we identified. The key problem is in Wenger's vision of football and what is important in order to have success - not the makeup of the squad. A couple of years ago I read a (fascinating) interview with him in which he was asked whether he valued the 'pragmatic' side of the game. He said yes, he did - he used the example of Brazil, and said that he thought a 10-yard pass that retains possession (as opposed to booting it forward, I guess) was very pragmatic and that this is exactly what he valued. And I thought, yes, fair point, but that wasn't what the question was getting at! As important as possession retention is (and it is very important), *some* consideration has to be given to defending and how you play without the ball (which was clearly what the question was getting at) yet he failed to even consider this possibility. Says it all really.

 

[zangatangring]

Re: How to solve a problem like Arsenal.

I think this'd be a good shout. Maybe not so much a regime change in terms of playing staff, but coaching staff would shake them up the right way? Pat Rice has been there longer than Wenger.

They should hire us as a committee to solve their problems. I'd do it for a tenner an hour.


Anyway, how do you think they'll fare this coming season? They need to sort the Cesc/Nasri situations out ASAP; which will definitely leave them lacking in midfield. Gervinho looks to be a good signing who'll create lots of chances, but they need more creativity through the middle imo.

Cesc/Nasri is bad for them. Oddly I think they could cope technically with losing Cesc (brilliant though he is) as they still have a surfeit of creative, technical passers. They are pretty much the only team in England that could absorb such a blow. However, on a psychological level it would/will be terrible. The team's leader will either have left or (if he stays) be unhappy. And if Nasri stays, everyone knows he will be leaving next year, so how will their other big guns (RvP, Vermaelen, even Wilshere) feel? They will not believe in the squad or the 'project' or, ultimately, senior management, and for a squad which has already show serious mental weakness this is hardly a recipe for success.

And there has been no move to address the fundamental errors in their approach to the game that we identified. The key problem is in Wenger's vision of football and what is important in order to have success - not the makeup of the squad. A couple of years ago I read a (fascinating) interview with him in which he was asked whether he valued the 'pragmatic' side of the game. He said yes, he did - he used the example of Brazil, and said that he thought a 10-yard pass that retains possession (as opposed to booting it forward, I guess) was very pragmatic and that this is exactly what he valued. And I thought, yes, fair point, but that wasn't what the question was getting at! As important as possession retention is (and it is very important), *some* consideration has to be given to defending and how you play without the ball (which was clearly what the question was getting at) yet he failed to even consider this possibility. Says it all really.

please can you pass on a link mate?

 

[Braggster]

Re: How to solve a problem like Arsenal.

Sure:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sp...rticle6796014.ece?token=null&offset=36&page=4.

The excerpt in question is:

Is it also hard to remain where you are, and to aspire to win, yet retaining a commitment to very attractive football? I argue with a guy at my local who says if you would just compromise and be pragmatic Arsenal might win more.

Yes, but if I asked you who was the best team in the world you would say Brazil. And do they play good football? Yes. Which club won everything last year? Barcelona. Good football. I am not against being pragmatic, because it is pragmatic to make a good pass, not a bad one. If I have the ball, what do I do with it? Could anybody argue that a bad solution like just kicking it away is pragmatic just because, sometimes, it works by accident?

Not exactly how I remembered it - but it's interesting he doesn't even consider that "pragmatism" can be about set pieces, defensive shape, etc.

 

[leighton]

Re: How to solve a problem like Arsenal.

Am I the only 1 thinking if they can hold onto Cesc and Nasri and bring in Mata and Jagielka along with Gervinho that they will be a stronger team than the seasons gone by. Yes they messed up last season but were in the mix with 2 months to go to win the title. A stronger defence and Arsenal will be in the mix for the title again this coming season.

 

[Viva Rivaldo]

Re: How to solve a problem like Arsenal.

Am I the only 1 thinking if they can hold onto Cesc and Nasri and bring in Mata and Jagielka along with Gervinho that they will be a stronger team than the seasons gone by. Yes they messed up last season but were in the mix with 2 months to go to win the title. A stronger defence and Arsenal will be in the mix for the title again this coming season.

The thing is, virtually the same thing has been said year after year. They'll always be "in the mix" as long as they have Wenger's footballing philosophy and a nucleus of solid players, but being in the mix just doesn't cut it anymore.

 

[leighton]

Re: How to solve a problem like Arsenal.

Am I the only 1 thinking if they can hold onto Cesc and Nasri and bring in Mata and Jagielka along with Gervinho that they will be a stronger team than the seasons gone by. Yes they messed up last season but were in the mix with 2 months to go to win the title. A stronger defence and Arsenal will be in the mix for the title again this coming season.

The thing is, virtually the same thing has been said year after year. They'll always be "in the mix" as long as they have Wenger's footballing philosophy and a nucleus of solid players, but being in the mix just doesn't cut it anymore.

Last season will make them stronger. They were there for long enough in the season. They could well be 1 or 2 players short but getting these players will make them a harder team to break down than normal. Attacking wise they dont need much work on.

 

[zangatangring]

Re: How to solve a problem like Arsenal.

Sure:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sp...rticle6796014.ece?token=null&offset=36&page=4.

The excerpt in question is:

Is it also hard to remain where you are, and to aspire to win, yet retaining a commitment to very attractive football? I argue with a guy at my local who says if you would just compromise and be pragmatic Arsenal might win more.

Yes, but if I asked you who was the best team in the world you would say Brazil. And do they play good football? Yes. Which club won everything last year? Barcelona. Good football. I am not against being pragmatic, because it is pragmatic to make a good pass, not a bad one. If I have the ball, what do I do with it? Could anybody argue that a bad solution like just kicking it away is pragmatic just because, sometimes, it works by accident?

Not exactly how I remembered it - but it's interesting he doesn't even consider that "pragmatism" can be about set pieces, defensive shape, etc.

Thanks. This his radically changed my perception of Arsene Wenger. Although clearly intellectual, I think his education is a veneer that insinuates to intellectual inferiors that he's notably intelligent.

It's either he or the critiques that miss the point. Arsenal's philosophy of football has ultimately governed their identity. They can't just transform into City/Chelsea/Utd the next. Football is an entertainment industry; not just a competition. Do you know how much revenue Arsenal generate purely because they play 'good football?' The challenge is whether (in Arsenal's situation) he can challenge with this conservatism. It has worked in the past.....

 

[sam the drummer]

Re: How to solve a problem like Arsenal.

Same old Arsenal, 2-0 up and manage to draw 2-2 against Boca.
They can buy Mata and all the other attackers they want, but it won't help until they can defend properly!

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0sdiBNvmtc8&feature=player_embedded[/youtube]<br /><br />-- Sun Jul 31, 2011 5:31 pm --<br /><br />LOLLLLLL Arsenal again conceded in the last minutes against NY Red Bulls. That meant they didn't win the Emirates cup bahaha.

 

[Pride]

Re: How to solve a problem like Arsenal.

Their style of football is not the problem. As someone that watched the Spanish league and Spanish style since I started following football I am a big believer in the philosophy as some kindly (or not-so-kindly) call "catenaccio with the ball."

Arsenal are actually more direct with their style of play than Barcelona, who are more (disagree all you want, but it's true if you compare) direct than the Spanish National Team (del Bosque is more fuckin obsessed with possession than even Guardiola).

The theory is really simple: the less time your opponents have on the ball, the less chance they have to score, and the more chance your team has to score. Of course the achilles heel of this system is the counter attack, which Manchester United and even Real Madrid have exploited in recent times.

So we know the strengths and the flaws. So what exactly is wrong with Arsenal that other clubs or teams who employ a similar system don't suffer?

I haven't read much of this thread so I don't know what other people said but primarily their defense is lacking, their midfield lacks the work ethic that you must have if you play this style, and their pressing, while great against lower teams, doesn't work too well against high-calibre teams.

They need to buy someone like Samba or Sakho to pair with Vermaelen, and a good left-back, someone who is more stable and defensively sound (Clichy sucked, and Gibbs is worse). I like Sagna, I would keep him, but of course there are always better options.

Their midfield offers plenty of arsenal for attack (pun intended) but defensively they suck. Period. Alex Song is like the poor man's version of Yaya Toure who's touch, passing, positioning, tackling, pace, creativity and attacking prowess are all five steps below. Yaya makes rampaging runs and crushes defenses. Alex Song attempts to run with the ball and loses it to second tier defenders.

Wenger needs to fucking do something drastic. Sell Denilson & Diaby. If I was him, I'd trade Cesc to Barca in a deal and get Mascherano as part of it. YOU NEED A GODDAMN SPINE. Get quality defenders and a left back. Buy another creative player, someone like Montolivo or Andrea Poli could work in place of Cesc, or if you want to poach another youngster, check out Sergio Canales from Madrid.

If he chooses to keep Cesc then unload Arshavin OR Nasri (not both) and get another attacking mid. Mata is an excellent choice, of course. I could go on and on about what I think Wenger "should" do but all I can do is theorize on what I believe the best options are. Of course, I am not Arsene Wenger. I am nobody. He manages Arsenal and has done a damn good job with what he's given for many years now, so who are we really to criticize? I highly doubt I can do a better job, but hey, tis only my opinion.