Attacks in Paris

Coleridge, I hope this doesn't come across as personal but I have to say you're posts in this thread reflect what I believe is the very problem with Islam its integration and why these attacks continue in western countries. Whilst, admirably you state you're distaste and condemnation of the attacks there is a malaise in the way you do this, you then appear to spend more energies and effort excusing them ("its the Zionists" "B-Liar" etc). If the "Real" Islamic communities exerted as much effort into shopping the militants and radicalisers (sp) in their midst as they do condemning Israel and successive Western Governments, these attacks imo would be much rarer. Instead there is a definite secrecy and stick together attitude among muslims where you are muslim first, British/French/whatever second.
 
Seems as if the French are sending out one of their Aircraft Carriers out towards the east of the med.

HOw long is it supposed to be until the RN have a functioning carrier again? Will it be able to launch Fixed Wings or not?
 
softlad said:
Seems as if the French are sending out one of their Aircraft Carriers out towards the east of the med.

HOw long is it supposed to be until the RN have a functioning carrier again? Will it be able to launch Fixed Wings or not?
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I seem to recall there's a bit of a fuck up with our new carriers. They've not been designed to house the steam catapults required to launched fixed wing aircraft and the supposed replacement for the Harrier is long overdue(although they might be back on target since I last looked).
 
softlad said:
Seems as if the French are sending out one of their Aircraft Carriers out towards the east of the med.

HOw long is it supposed to be until the RN have a functioning carrier again? Will it be able to launch Fixed Wings or not?
Click to expand...

I think its 2019 that HMS Queen Elizabeth comes into active service, but yes it will have fast jet capability.
 
The new carriers will only be able to launch VSTOL aircraft.
Arrestor hooks cannot be retro fitted.
If the F35 is scrapped we'll be buying our Harriers back off the US marines and India.
 
mrbelfry said:
I have some sympathy with Coleridge - imagine if this attack had be carried out by a group of people claiming to be City fans. We'd be quick to denounce them as not true city fans and use York Away as the qualifying criteria. I know that is a huge simplification but just read the media bias thread to see how people respond when something as arbitrary as which football team you support is misrepresented in the media.

A huge problem we have and it is one that is characterised in this thread is that we like to lump whole groups of people together and assume they are all the same. Whether Christians, atheists or Muslims we reduce everything to its lowest common denominator - so all religious people are nutters and all atheists are intelligent and peace loving.

Coleridge is bringing some shade to the idea that IS is an Islamic problem and the incredibly dangerous idea that the Islamic community is doing nothing to condem IS. They don't represent an understanding of Islam that Coleridge ascribes to so he's entitled to say they are not terrorists because they are Muslim and explanations should be sought from wider political and nationalist readings of the ME.

We need less of an us and them mentality as when we see something as different or lesser it's easier to justify doing crap to each other
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I also have a great deal of sympathy with coleridge, BillyShears and others. As sensible, intelligent Muslims it must break their hearts to see people who claim to be following the same faith carry out such acts.

To use your City fans analogy, if a group of Blues did something like this, then some might claim they're not real City fans, whereas the sensible approach is to admit that they are but that they're dickheads and we have an element in our support who are. I've said this before on here; being Blues doesn't make us immune from life's problems. There are plenty of Blues in prison.

But would the world then say "Decent City fans need to sort this out"? No they wouldn't; they'd expect the police to do it. Would it change anything if some OSC branches had a vote and issued a statement saying they condemned this horrendous act? Not really. Similarly, expecting Muslims to sort this out and saying "Why aren't they condemning this" is pointless. If it's a military problem then it needs a military solution and if it's a political problem then it needs a political solution.
 
bluemoonmatt said:
Coleridge, I hope this doesn't come across as personal but I have to say you're posts in this thread reflect what I believe is the very problem with Islam its integration and why these attacks continue in western countries. Whilst, admirably you state you're distaste and condemnation of the attacks there is a malaise in the way you do this, you then appear to spend more energies and effort excusing them ("its the Zionists" "B-Liar" etc). If the "Real" Islamic communities exerted as much effort into shopping the militants and radicalisers (sp) in their midst as they do condemning Israel and successive Western Governments, these attacks imo would be much rarer. Instead there is a definite secrecy and stick together attitude among muslims where you are muslim first, British/French/whatever second.
Click to expand...
I never mentioned Blair. War criminals are for another day. I'll carry on calling out the Zionists. Do a survey of British Jews and I am sure that 99% of them will support whatever crimes Israel commits against Palestinians. That's the difference between them and me. I don't want anyone to be the victims of crime or oppression.
 
mrbelfry said:
I have some sympathy with Coleridge - imagine if this attack had be carried out by a group of people claiming to be City fans. We'd be quick to denounce them as not true city fans and use York Away as the qualifying criteria. I know that is a huge simplification but just read the media bias thread to see how people respond when something as arbitrary as which football team you support is misrepresented in the media.

A huge problem we have and it is one that is characterised in this thread is that we like to lump whole groups of people together and assume they are all the same. Whether Christians, atheists or Muslims we reduce everything to its lowest common denominator - so all religious people are nutters and all atheists are intelligent and peace loving.

Coleridge is bringing some shade to the idea that IS is an Islamic problem and the incredibly dangerous idea that the Islamic community is doing nothing to condem IS. They don't represent an understanding of Islam that Coleridge ascribes to so he's entitled to say they are not terrorists because they are Muslim and explanations should be sought from wider political and nationalist readings of the ME.

We need less of an us and them mentality as when we see something as different or lesser it's easier to justify doing crap to each other
Click to expand...
I don't need any sympathy, kind of you as it is.

Do yourself a favour and read between the lines that people write and see how the tilt is always to Islam and never to any other religion. Neither do I understand how the atheists seem to think that they can rise above the arguments that surround Middle East politics, such as oil, the arms trade and, inevitably, Israel.
 
coleridge said:
I never mentioned Blair. War criminals are for another day. I'll carry on calling out the Zionists. Do a survey of British Jews and I am sure that 99% of them will support whatever crimes Israel commits against Palestinians. That's the difference between them and me. I don't want anyone to be the victims of crime or oppression.
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I used the B-liar as an example of common apologist rhetoric. I have absolutely no doubt you will call out "Zionists" with double the zeal I imagine you will spend on calling out the militant and radical elements of your'e own faith, whilst paying the necessary lip service to condemning them of course. Which was kind of my point really !
 
coleridge said:
I never mentioned Blair. War criminals are for another day. I'll carry on calling out the Zionists. Do a survey of British Jews and I am sure that 99% of them will support whatever crimes Israel commits against Palestinians. That's the difference between them and me. I don't want anyone to be the victims of crime or oppression.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I meant to ask aswell. Do you recognise ANY of the crimes Palestinians have committed against the "Zionists" equally. Cos if I'm honest they appear to me to be just as bad as each other, they want their heads banging together. My last word on this btw, as gelson and others have said, this is supposed to be about Paris.
 
bluemoonmatt said:
I used the B-liar as an example of common apologist rhetoric. I have absolutely no doubt you will call out "Zionists" with double the zeal I imagine you will spend on calling out the militant and radical elements of your'e own faith, whilst paying the necessary lip service to condemning them of course. Which was kind of my point really !
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Lip service? What on earth are you talking about?
 
bluemoonmatt said:
Sorry, I meant to ask aswell. Do you recognise ANY of the crimes Palestinians have committed against the "Zionists" equally. Cos if I'm honest they appear to me to be just as bad as each other, they want their heads banging together. My last word on this btw, as gelson and others have said, this is supposed to be about Paris.
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I recognise all crimes as what they are.
 
Brightwells left peg said:
That's right.

I remember that time when the atheist fundamentalists crossed the line and got into a heated debate with a group of easily offended religious leaders. The bastards
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Fundamentalist Atheists like Stephen Fry, Ricky Gervais etc are oddballs, like their work but they seem very insecure. They like to pontificate about how evil religion is, I put down to their left wing views .
 
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