"Blackfishing"

NorCalBlue

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The two things are completely different , being born in the wrong body is gender identidy and a medical issue ,shouldnt need explaining , christ
Think about how transgender people were treated 30 years ago (or even more recently). If someone's mental health is being compromised by feeling that they don't fit the life they were born into, should society be allowed to prevent them changing that?
 

I'm With Stupid

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These kind of discussions are very frustrating for people on both sides, because it seems really obvious to everyone that they're right and the other side is wrong. The main way to get someone to understand your point of view seems to be by comparison to similar situations. That leads to a lot of "it's not the same thing" comments, but I think it's still the best way forward for anyone trying to reach common ground in good faith.
I don't think that's true at all. I think there are plenty of people on here who make an effort to understand the issues and then might come to different conclusions about it. And then there are another group who deliberately don't try to understand the issue at all, and take pride in their unwillingness to attempt to understand another perspective.

So, here's a comparison to think about: for those who think it's wrong for a white person to look, dress, and act like a black person, do you feel the same way about trans-women? They grew up as men, so they haven't suffered any of the disadvantages of being a woman, but now they look, dress, and act like women.
Most of the prejudice against trans women throughout history (and the present) has precisely been because they've been seen as men who are superficially acting as women. It's slowly becoming more widely understood that that's not what's really going on. But yes, there are legitimate discussions to be had around women-only spaces, where the justification is based on female physiology that trans women don't necessarily share. My attitude with trans women is, yes, they probably haven't had to deal with some of the shit that women have to growing up, but they've probably had to deal with more than enough shit of their own by being trans. And it's not as if trans women have chosen to be trans because they think being a woman looks cool or will get them more followers on Instagram.

If the answer is that it's different, because these were men who genuinely felt that they should be women and weren't trying to gain money or fame from the change, then is it okay for 'normal' white people to 'blackfish', as long as they aren't trying to profit from it and genuinely feel more comfortable as part of the black community?
People who are accused of blackfishing aren't trying to be part of the black community, they are superficially taking aspects of it. And they are almost certainly profiting from it if they're being criticised. The only question is whether anything is wrong with that. People who are genuinely engaged and involved in a particular community (e.g. Eminem) rarely get criticised in the same way, even if wider society is criticised when the black originators fail to have the same success as the white adopters.
 

feelymcfeel

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Aphex

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Thats the literal definition of racism.
It is. The fact is that debate is closed down on this now, apart from angry comments on the article and in newspapers on similar pieces. It will only do more damage in the long run.
 

crublue1

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So? Just because it's a 1st world problem doesn't not make it a problem.

Again, I'll say it's completely harmless to just make an effort to understand the other perspective. Nobody needs to change their mind on anything, but a little bit of understanding never hurt anybody.
Yep, I'll go with that.

When I saw the pic I thought "so what, what's all the fuss about"

Then I read this thread and I've been educated a little by the sensible contributions, and the reasons why some would find it offensive.

I don't find it offensive, and I won't pretend to be just because someone else is.

Your last sentence sums it up for me.
 

crublue1

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Just to add a bit of life context to an interesting thread, I've been fortunate enough to have had long term relationships with both a black girl and a mixed race girl. They both lasted for 10 + years.

In that time they both changed the way they looked, dressed, etc, the same way any young woman does when following fashion, or the latest music or celebs etc.

The mixed race girl was a stunner, with gorgeous curly hair, but she'd often straighten it. Took fooking ages lol. No one ever accused her of trying to look white, because she wasn't. She wanted to look different, stand out, and show that she cared about her appearance. She also looked great when she grew her hair and had a 'fro.
I thought she was beautiful whatever she did tbh.

Let people do what they want, there isn't always an agenda. Where there clearly is it should be debated, but respectfully and calmly.
 

NorCalBlue

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I don't think that's true at all. I think there are plenty of people on here who make an effort to understand the issues and then might come to different conclusions about it. And then there are another group who deliberately don't try to understand the issue at all, and take pride in their unwillingness to attempt to understand another perspective.


Most of the prejudice against trans women throughout history (and the present) has precisely been because they've been seen as men who are superficially acting as women. It's slowly becoming more widely understood that that's not what's really going on. But yes, there are legitimate discussions to be had around women-only spaces, where the justification is based on female physiology that trans women don't necessarily share. My attitude with trans women is, yes, they probably haven't had to deal with some of the shit that women have to growing up, but they've probably had to deal with more than enough shit of their own by being trans. And it's not as if trans women have chosen to be trans because they think being a woman looks cool or will get them more followers on Instagram.


People who are accused of blackfishing aren't trying to be part of the black community, they are superficially taking aspects of it. And they are almost certainly profiting from it if they're being criticised. The only question is whether anything is wrong with that. People who are genuinely engaged and involved in a particular community (e.g. Eminem) rarely get criticised in the same way, even if wider society is criticised when the black originators fail to have the same success as the white adopters.
Thanks for the considered response. I don't want to spend all day going back and forth on every detail of what you wrote, especially as I agree with most of it, but I still don't think it's clear how cultural identity issues will eventually be viewed. A pop-star pretending to be something they're not for the street-cred isn't anything new and is pretty easy to dismiss - I think Rachel Dolezal is a much more borderline case that poses a lot of questions. She was definitely genuinely engaged and actively involved in her community, and although she was a little more extreme, we all subtly (or otherwise) change our mannerisms and appearance to match those around us in order to fit in. Leonard Zelig would get into in all sorts of trouble these days (a little joke to lighten the mood...).
 

Fode N The Hole

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I'd be interested to see if anyone has an issue with this. I find it curious in the respect of the shut down culture we seem to have now. As soon as you try to debate this you are out. Which is a shame as people could learn from both sides of the arguement

View attachment 28009

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ho...-casting-a-white-dude-as-lead-us-1197021/amp/

I suppose it limits the direction of his career somewhat because he can only tell stories with black lead characters.

If that's the direction he wants to stay in it's his perogative.
 

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