Blaming the players

[JohnMaddocksAxe]

<bump>

this should be on the first page.

Why?

Because it's a Hughes out thread?

LOL...for the record...I posted this somewhere else yesterday...

Who do we believe in...the mediocre players in the squad that know they're gone, and are acting like it....the manager who knows they're gone and seems incapable of motivating them...

You know I had an ironic laugh earlier as I contemplated the vast difference between wanting to sign players of the ilk of David Villa, and the disgrace of losing today...

One more thing, I hope those who have spent the week going on and on about certain players not being good enough have realized tonight that its tough to get worse than some of the shite we call a first team squad. I even take back what I said about Scott Parker. Him, Bellamy, RSC, Given, Toure, et al would all be a fuck of a lot better than the shite we have...

City players who played tonight, go fuck yourselves...Hughes, go fuck yourself...Cook...pull your fucking finger out and do something...if ever a club needed a figurehead, an inspiration, a leader...this it the club...now is the time...

That's not strictly true though, is it?

Some of the players are mediocre, probably the majority of them. Buts that is only in comparison to other Premier League players. 90% of the players in this league are mediocre. However, it's still true that this squad, player for player is still a lot better than half the other squads in the league.

People can choose to dismiss that or pretend it isn't true but no-one would have the cheek to claim that if this squad was put on the market there would be more players interesting decent Premier League outfits than the squads from West Brom, Blackburn, Stoke, Boro, Sunderland, Newacstle, Hull, Fulham, West Ham and probably a couple of others.

The issue is not whether the players are comparable to the top four or even Villa's squad. It is why they are performing so far below their collective ability and so far below the levels that all of them, apart from Ireland, have reached before in thier careers. They are consistently failing to reach levels of performance that other managers are coaxing out of more limited squads. Whether that is down to other managers being able to motivate their players or being better tactically isn't really relevant. The only relevant thing is that it is happening.

That can only be the responsibility of one man.

City have not suddenly got this never seen before squad of complete and utter wankers who are intent on flushing thier careers down the pan without a care in the world or fucking over the fans just because they are complete bastards. That's a ridiculous thing for people to claim (not that you are specifically) but it seems to be the only excuse that Hughes is relying on. He honestly wants us to believe that this group of players is, unbelievably, different to all the other squads in English football and is completely unmanagable. Thereby absolving himself from responsibility. And some people are buying into it!!!!!


PS: you say feck the players and feck Hughes but are you suggesting that the only way to solve this issue is to get rid of everyone? That's completely unrealistic (if you are), surely? Time and again it has been shown that different managers have the ability to get different levels of performance out of different players and that's why people change managers. It's the only logical choice here. To want to change half the squad in one fell swoop is ludicrous and a luxary that would not even be considered at any club that wasn't the richest in the world. Just because we have money doesn't mean that we should work in a manner that is different to well run clubs.

 

[Anonymous]

That's not strictly true though, is it?

Some of the players are mediocre, probably the majority of them. Buts that is only in comparison to other Premier League players. 90% of the players in this league are mediocre. However, it's still true that this squad, player for player is still a lot better than half the other squads in the league.

People can choose to dismiss that or pretend it isn't true but no-one would have the cheek to claim that if this squad was put on the market there would be more players interesting decent Premier League outfits than the squads from West Brom, Blackburn, Stoke, Boro, Sunderland, Newacstle, Hull, Fulham, West Ham and probably a couple of others.

Performances in 2008 would suggest that this squad isn't nearly as good as some on this board are making out. It's a squad of inconsistent players who rely on one or two to make them tick.

The issue is not whether the players are comparable to the top four or even Villa's squad. It is why they are performing so far below their collective ability and so far below the levels that all of them, apart from Ireland, have reached before in thier careers. They are consistently failing to reach levels of performance that other managers are coaxing out of more limited squads. Whether that is down to other managers being able to motivate their players or being better tactically isn't really relevant. The only relevant thing is that it is happening.

That can only be the responsibility of one man.

I agree with that to a certain extent. However as I say, the same players performed far below their collective abilities under Sven for the first half of 2008. Nobody blamed the manager then...

City have not suddenly got this never seen before squad of complete and utter wankers who are intent on flushing thier careers down the pan without a care in the world or fucking over the fans just because they are complete bastards. That's a ridiculous thing for people to claim (not that you are specifically) but it seems to be the only excuse that Hughes is relying on. He honestly wants us to believe that this group of players is, unbelievably, different to all the other squads in English football and is completely unmanagable. Thereby absolving himself from responsibility. And some people are buying into it!!!!!

Actually, I've never heard him say that at all. He's talked about there being frailties within the squad, which I'm sure we can all agree with.

Too many football supporters are fickle by nature and will actually make assertions based on their personal 'feelings' towards a particular manager or player. They'll highlight only points which they feel strengthen their argument, and constantly ignore, belittle, or berate any point which my counter their argument. I've said somewhere else and i'll say it here: i don't care one iota about a players gripe with the manager, the coaching staff, the tactics, the training...they have a duty to go out and perform to the best of their abilities for the fans and for the fucking club that is paying them millions of pounds a year...conversely, the manager needs to figure out how to motivate the millionaires in his dressing room. If he's given them the impression that a lot of them are surplus to requirements then he's an idiot and needs hauling over the coals by the owners.

PS: you say feck the players and feck Hughes but are you suggesting that the only way to solve this issue is to get rid of everyone? That's completely unrealistic (if you are), surely? Time and again it has been shown that different managers have the ability to get different levels of performance out of different players and that's why people change managers. It's the only logical choice here. To want to change half the squad in one fell swoop is ludicrous and a luxary that would not even be considered at any club that wasn't the richest in the world. Just because we have money doesn't mean that we should work in a manner that is different to well run clubs.

LOL. I think the point i was trying to make (albeit incredibly inarticulately), was that I don't really care what's going on behind the scenes to cause this type of performance. I just want it fixed.

My personal opinion is that if Hughes is given until the end of this season, the owners need to make certain that they back him beyond that to stop the type of 'dead man walking' situation we had last season. Otherwise, they should be done with it, and sack him now and bring someone else in either as a caretaker, or on a permanent basis...my concern is that we're going to end up with the former...

 

[phil58]

The posts on this topic are far too long. I've given up reading them half way through. I said a few weeks ago I was .losing patience with Hughes.
After yesterday I am disgusted with the attitude of the players. Regardless of formation/tactics etc the players on the field should have had enough quality/ability to beat Forrest. Apart from obvious 4/5 the rest can go and play in the conference league as far as I'm concerned.

 

[JohnMaddocksAxe]

Not got time to respons to that Billy. I get what you are saying though

 

[taggarc]

The posts on this topic are far too long. I've given up reading them half way through. I said a few weeks ago I was .losing patience with Hughes.
After yesterday I am disgusted with the attitude of the players. Regardless of formation/tactics etc the players on the field should have had enough quality/ability to beat Forrest. Apart from obvious 4/5 the rest can go and play in the conference league as far as I'm concerned.

Spot on these guys are just not interested in playing for anybody, particularly if it helps City move up the league table and attract quality replacements. They might last over winter with their tactics but they will be out regardless when it comes to the summer. Hopefully a few of them will find themselves with even lesser teams due to their poor attitude and performances.

Probably explains with Hughes is having to go for lesser signings in January and an interim team build. Although the January signings may not be great thay will all the be quality squad players which is more than can be said for a lot of the current regime.

Yesterday's match highlights what Hughes and other players who care and perform have to put up with now on an on-going basis. It really is asking a lot of the others -SWP, Kompany, Robbie, ZAB, Ireland, Sturridge and possibly Dunne to make-up for this pile of ....

 

[Blue Mooner]

Sven had six months of excellent results to point to as evidence of him being able to motivate the squad and produce winning football. Hughes has absolutely nothing to point to as a positive.

The fact that the players can obviously produce good performances just shows that they are performing way below their ability for most of the time.

I don't know how many times I have to say this but THAT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE MANAGEMENT.

The current management have shown nothing but ineptitude and failure since they got here. And a key difference to the situation with Sven is that this management team have actually taken us to the unimaginable position where relegation is actually something we have to consider as a possibility.

If you don't think that a squad that constantly under performs and regularly does not get anything near their maximum capacity (or even near an acceptbale level) on a consistent basis is not the responsibility of the manager then I'm not sure what you think the job of a manager is and what they are responsible for.

Get more than (or even equal to) the sum of the squads parts - He has failed, badly
Motivating the squad - He has failed, badly
Getting results - He has failed, badly
Improving the numerous young players - He has failed, badly (for every Ireland that has improved there is a Richards that has gone backwards under him, an Onouha who has been ignored, or a Fernandes who has gone from looking an average prospect to a mess).


Whatever criteria you use for judging the man , and I don't count being able to spend £80m on Robinho, Kompany and Zabletta (well known players) as something impressive, he has failed completely.

The 'give him time' argument has to be backed up by something more than blind faith that he will suddenly wave a magic wand and everything that is currently terrible on his watch will reverse itself. Otherwise it becomes an empty cliche with no substance to it other than buttock clenching, ignorant, eyes shut hope.

Please do not point to the players performing really well sometimes and having talent as a defence of him. That's the biggest fucking criticism of him that anyone can make.

I think its clear that once the euphoria of getting Sven in, having some fresh blood, and the fact that we happened to win many of our home games 1-0 against weaker premiership sides had died down that the team found it's natural level. The way I see it if Sven was unable to make that team perform like a top 7 team then Mark Hughes is unlikely to have any magic formula.

Bear in mind that we were skirting with relegation the previous season under Pearce and it's clear that of the signings Sven made, in the end only:

Elano, Petrov, Corluka, possibly Garrido added any real quality With Petrov out, Corluka gone - that's only 2 players on top of Pearce's squad.

Bojinov who neither manager has been able to pick.

Fernandes, Caceido, Benjani, Bianchi, Geovanni (Because he never picked him) have all failed to impress

Therefore when we are without our better players like SWP, Ireland, Robinho, Petrov, Johnson as we were yesterday the squad is just not good enough.

We don't have a top rate striker to go alongside Robinho despite numerous attempts to buy one.

If you honestly believe that by signing 4 players (Not including Jo as Hughes didn't sign him) 1 - Zabelata, who replaced Corluka going out - therfore 3 net new additions, plus the 2 from Sven's reign is enough to take us close to a top six side then it is my belief you are kidding yourself.

When we have a full strength side we can play some good stuff and entertain. Some of the football I have seen this season is infinitely better than what I saw at home last season.

All you are doing I'm afraid is supplying the ammunition that Man U fans want that we are yet again going to allow ourselves to implode just when the opportunity to progress presents itself - by not backing our manager. If the players knew that we the fans were right behind Hughes, the board were right behind Hughes then those players who are quite clearly keen to create problems to protect their own backsides would realise that resistance is futile and they need to toe the line.

Unfortunately it's the weak and those who lack bottle who take the easy option to sack the manager as a solution. If the players know this is the recourse you will take and that will save their own skin then guess what ?

Sadly what you are doing is undermining the fabric of the club and making Hughes job - which is hard as it is - even harder.

The united fans are very scared of the potential we have. The fact that all I have heard them chant about is City tells me that they are sh*tting themsleves about what this money could do for our great club. We should be focusing our attentions on winding them b*stards up not on creating instability.

 

[blueOAP]

Maybe no excuse will be required !. Just maybe we will have the signings to turn things around. All this crap about you can't blame the players. They are the ones on the pitch who should be playing to establish themselves in the worlds richest and someday to be the worlds best club. If things don't go well as they have not lately who is to blame, its obvious some of the players are not good enough for Man City. Just how many of the players are totally down to Hughes and how many has he inhereted ?. This is his first transfer window to really build his own team. Lets see what happens by the end of February and then make a judgement if we are then relegation contenders maybe things will be different, but give the man a chance.

 

[mcfcgto]

Numerous threads on here yet again blaming the players. Yet the hypocrasy stinks. Time and again the same characters are acusing some of the 'hughes out' lot of banging the same drum regardless of what occurs. This is of course true in some cases and some were against him before he got here. That is indefensible.

However, time and again, after each woeful and unacceptable performance the same 'Hughes through thick and thin' brigade seek to completely absolve the management from any responsibility and put all the blame on the players.

Consider this though. We have all seen the majority of these players perform at a very high level either whilst or City or before they joined. Yet now it is not one or two players that are consistently putting in below par performances, it is the vast majority of the squad.

These under performing players. Just hold on for a minute and consider who they are.

Elano - Brazil international
Robinho (according to some) - one of the best players in the world
Richards - the youngest ever defender to play for England and, until this season, recognised by all as probably the best defender of his age in Europe.
Dunne - Captain of the Republic of Ireland and a top Premier League defender for the past 5 season.
SWP - brilliant winger whose productivity has decreased over the past few weeks.
Joe Hart - Easily the best young keeper in the country, possibly Europe.


Add in the likes of Ireland, Sturridge and Kompany who have lept a consistent performance and that's some basis for a squad.

How can it be that all these players have all of a suddenly either hit an unimaginable patch of form or have suddenly turned into these disgusting characters who the Hughes brigade would have you believe couldn't give a shit about this club, the fans or anyone else?

It doesn't add up. Things don't work like that.

Throughout history the football manager has been held accountable for results. When a sustained level of drastic underperformance has been achieved then a manager inevitably gets held responsible and held to account.

When results have been as bad as they have been and the majority of the squad, not one or two or a small section, have been so below par then a manager is held responsible for it. In any sector at a high level, in any job, but especially football management, the buck passing excuse of "its nothing to do with me, its the people below me just does not wash over anything other than a short honeymoon period. Especially when the people below you are performing at a level so far below their collective ability.

Managers are there to maximise performance from their resources. If they get much more from than the sum of the parts then they are exceptional managers. If they get slightly more then they are doing a decent job. If they consistently get far less than the sum of the parts then their position becomes untenable and the buck passing cry of 'it's everyone elses fault' becomes laughable.

These players have obviously not taken the collective decision to flush their careers and reputations down the toilet yet this is what they are virtually doing at present.

Whilst responsibility lies with the players to some extent for everything that happens on the field, the buck stops with the management. It always has and always will. If you have such highly rated resources and get such terrible results then in any other industry, where you don't have 'supporters' willing to buy into cliches and support you regardless, you are sacked.

Every single manager who ever got the sack could point to the players as not haing performed. From Alan Ball to Barry Fry, they would be correct. The players obviously haven't performed because the results have been bad - that's why they have been sacked.

It doesn't matter though. They are responsible for getting performances out of the players and ensuring that they buy into them.

The buck stops with the manager.

(ps: no manager that has ever been sacked in the history of football has ever had the temerity to say "I've spent £80m and produced awful results, but just let me spend another £100m and everything will be alright" so it's not exactly relevant. I don't care who takes over until the end of the season. The management can't get anything like decent performances from the squad and I would therefore back any old mug to have some sort of 'Joe Kinnear' slight improvement that would avert the disater that this management team is flirting with)

 

[Muckin Funster]

Crap Squad = Crap Results = Sack Manager = New Manager = Fresh Chance For Crap Squad + Few Changes = Crap Squad = Crap Results = Sack Manager = New Manager = Fresh Chance For Crap Squad + Few Changes = Crap Squad = Crap Results = Sack Manager = New Manager = Fresh Chance For Crap Squad + Few Changes = Crap Squad = Crap Results = Sack Manager = New Manager = Fresh Chance For Crap Squad + Few Changes = Crap Squad = Crap Results

See the re-occuring theme here, i'm not saying MH is the right man for the job, just that most of the players in our crap squad are only still here because of the "Im the new manager, and we'll start a fresh, prove you worth in training etc" speech.

Get rid of the crap players (Were apparently rich, so pay their contracts in full, and fu@k em off). Then get some top quality in, and come the summer make a decision ref. MH.

 

[sweep]

Crap Squad = Crap Results = Sack Manager = New Manager = Fresh Chance For Crap Squad + Few Changes = Crap Squad = Crap Results = Sack Manager = New Manager = Fresh Chance For Crap Squad + Few Changes = Crap Squad = Crap Results = Sack Manager = New Manager = Fresh Chance For Crap Squad + Few Changes = Crap Squad = Crap Results = Sack Manager = New Manager = Fresh Chance For Crap Squad + Few Changes = Crap Squad = Crap Results

Your equation is flawed, you missed out all the crap managers.