Bundesliga review part 2. the new one :)

[BayernMan]

Beautiful goal by Gotze!

 

[supercrystal7]

i think he will leave in summer. Since he has that 45 million euro price tag, he is playing pretty average.

He was replaced as no 10 first by KP Boateng and now by the younger talent Max Meyer. So he plays left winger, which he doesn´t like very much

He has made it no secret he prefers to play centrally but i feel likehis release clause scares a lot of clubs away in my opinion. Dont get me wrong Draxler is very talented at Schalke and just imahine if he had world class talent around him at a big club but €45m is a big price even for the most talented players let alone a 20 year old kid

A big price, but that's what you have to play. I don't think 30 million though is too much to ask for him and they will probably get it. As has been said the Bundesliga clubs have left their top players go far too cheaply. If Lamela or William are worth 30 million then so is Draxler. He is not a 10 and no top club in the world is going to play him there. When he moves to a top club he will get a serious reality check. Meyer already is a better 10 than him and a bigger talent.<br /><br />-- Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:35 am --<br /><br />

Crazy business sense Leverkusen. What is the latest on Julian Draxler? Is it kite flying from the British Media or is he genuinely unsettled at Schalke?

Sam is getting 26 in January. Not in talent age. Until the first matches this season he was just a mediocre player. He had a run at the begin of the season - maybe even because of changed tactics of the team. I cannot see the big managerial blow up there. Prior to this season the sum would be a little low - but a release clause usually includes that you earn less. How will he perform if his run is over, the team changes tactics or is not in a good period?

If he was a mediocre player then you don't buy him. 2.5 million is terrible business and just plain stupid. You won't even be able to buy the best championship players for that money. The Bundesliga has to realise quickly that value for players has gone up drastically, especially when dealing with teams from abroad.

 

[supercrystal7]

Well we'll just have to disagree. What, out of interest is your view on City ? There has been the odd poor result this season but presumably you don't think that makes you a bad side, why should Bayern be any different ?
Guardiola is still experimenting, if it takes a season to get things right then so be it, the club won't put him under pressure. Nobody expects him to do a Heynckes and win the lot. We are top of the league, in the quarter finals of the cup and have just won our CL group. Guardiola has lost just one (relatively meaningless) competitive game since he arrived and has the best start to a season of any Bayern trainer in history.
Forgive me for thinking your concern is rather over done. We are very happy with the way things are going atm.

I am not a City fan and City are not in the same situation as Bayern. City play in a much stronger league and have far less of a financial edge over their rivals. Nor is the City squad as strong.

Bayern have just come from winning the treble and are a young team. The majority of the team will get even better and they then signed the best young player in the world alongside Neymar.

Guardiola will win the league easily this year and probably next year, because Bayern are so much better than everyone else. Dortmund are the next biggest club and they would have to increase their income by 50% to match Bayern's. The other teams in the Bundesliga are in a transition period and that is why the likes of Leverkusen can get such a great points total this year. Guardiola's real test will come in the CL.

Guardiola inherited the strongest club side of the last 20 years, which was still improving and his actively making them weaker. It's not unfair to compare the Bundesliga to the SPL. No matter how bad a manager does at Celtic, they are still far too strong for the rest of the league and at the end of the day will win the league. The test comes with how they are doing against other teams of their level in Europe.

 

[bayern blade]

I am not a City fan and City are not in the same situation as Bayern. City play in a much stronger league and have far less of a financial edge over their rivals. Nor is the City squad as strong.

Bayern have just come from winning the treble and are a young team. The majority of the team will get even better and they then signed the best young player in the world alongside Neymar.

Guardiola will win the league easily this year and probably next year, because Bayern are so much better than everyone else. Dortmund are the next biggest club and they would have to increase their income by 50% to match Bayern's. The other teams in the Bundesliga are in a transition period and that is why the likes of Leverkusen can get such a great points total this year. Guardiola's real test will come in the CL.

Guardiola inherited the strongest club side of the last 20 years, which was still improving and his actively making them weaker. It's not unfair to compare the Bundesliga to the SPL. No matter how bad a manager does at Celtic, they are still far too strong for the rest of the league and at the end of the day will win the league. The test comes with how they are doing against other teams of their level in Europe.

A - I disagree that it's a "much stronger" league, there are one or two more teams competing at the top but after that it's pretty similar.

B - Of course but for the last couple of years it was Dortmund, that's how it goes.

C - Well yes it is, tbf it's a ridiculous comparison, the rest of the SPL are pub teams compared to Celtic which is nothing like the situation in Germany or Spain. The day the jocks get 4 teams in the second round of the CL hell will freeze over.

D - If things go on as they are then maybe in 4 or 5 years it will get boring but it's not boring yet.

 

[supercrystal7]

I am not a City fan and City are not in the same situation as Bayern. City play in a much stronger league and have far less of a financial edge over their rivals. Nor is the City squad as strong.

Bayern have just come from winning the treble and are a young team. The majority of the team will get even better and they then signed the best young player in the world alongside Neymar.

Guardiola will win the league easily this year and probably next year, because Bayern are so much better than everyone else. Dortmund are the next biggest club and they would have to increase their income by 50% to match Bayern's. The other teams in the Bundesliga are in a transition period and that is why the likes of Leverkusen can get such a great points total this year. Guardiola's real test will come in the CL.

Guardiola inherited the strongest club side of the last 20 years, which was still improving and his actively making them weaker. It's not unfair to compare the Bundesliga to the SPL. No matter how bad a manager does at Celtic, they are still far too strong for the rest of the league and at the end of the day will win the league. The test comes with how they are doing against other teams of their level in Europe.

A - I disagree that it's a "much stronger" league, there are one or two more teams competing at the top but after that it's pretty similar.

B - Of course but for the last couple of years it was Dortmund, that's how it goes.

C - Well yes it is, tbf it's a ridiculous comparison, the rest of the SPL are pub teams compared to Celtic which is nothing like the situation in Germany or Spain. The day the jocks get 4 teams in the second round of the CL hell will freeze over.

D - If things go on as they are then maybe in 4 or 5 years it will get boring but it's not boring yet.

1. No doubt it is a much stronger league. The Premiership has strengthened once again this season and the Bundesliga has gotten weaker. Quick examples. Leverkusen lost Schurrle, Dortmund lost Gotze and Schalke continue with a terrible manager. Only Wolfsburg have actually strengthened the team. Compare that with the investment Liverpool, Everton, City, Arsenal and Chelsea have made. Not just the team, but also the manager.

2. Dortmund won, because Bayern are going through what Dortmund are. Struggling to cope with a small squad fighting on all fronts. The difference is that Bayern realised this problem and invested heavily in squad players. Dortmund lost key first team players.

3. Spain at least has two teams capable of fighting equally. Germany just has one. Dortmund are comparable to Atletico. The manager has to be perfect and lucky with injuries to even begin to compete against the super powers. Not so with England. Even the French league may have two superpowers in the future.

4. Well that looks like the way things are going. Klopp is doing an unbelievable job, but as brilliant as he has been he made a few mistakes and he has to be literally perfect. He cannot make a mistake in anything he does to try keep up with Dortmund. City are the best team in England, but Chelsea can invest heavily and catch up with them next season. If United make top 4 they can invest and catch up. If Arsenal have finished paying off the stadium even they may be able to start competing. Unless Klopp can once again win the lottery and pick up world class players for nothing, there is no hope he can catch up to Bayern. The more realistic outcome is that Dortmund fall back and Klopp goes abroad.

 

[bayern blade]

1. No doubt it is a much stronger league. The Premiership has strengthened once again this season and the Bundesliga has gotten weaker. Quick examples. Leverkusen lost Schurrle, Dortmund lost Gotze and Schalke continue with a terrible manager. Only Wolfsburg have actually strengthened the team. Compare that with the investment Liverpool, Everton, City, Arsenal and Chelsea have made. Not just the team, but also the manager.

2. Dortmund won, because Bayern are going through what Dortmund are. Struggling to cope with a small squad fighting on all fronts. The difference is that Bayern realised this problem and invested heavily in squad players. Dortmund lost key first team players.

3. Spain at least has two teams capable of fighting equally. Germany just has one. Dortmund are comparable to Atletico. The manager has to be perfect and lucky with injuries to even begin to compete against the super powers. Not so with England. Even the French league may have two superpowers in the future.

4. Well that looks like the way things are going. Klopp is doing an unbelievable job, but as brilliant as he has been he made a few mistakes and he has to be literally perfect. He cannot make a mistake in anything he does to try keep up with Dortmund. City are the best team in England, but Chelsea can invest heavily and catch up with them next season. If United make top 4 they can invest and catch up. If Arsenal have finished paying off the stadium even they may be able to start competing. Unless Klopp can once again win the lottery and pick up world class players for nothing, there is no hope he can catch up to Bayern. The more realistic outcome is that Dortmund fall back and Klopp goes abroad.

I'm not really bothered enough to keep arguing about it to be fair, I would however like to point out that Schürrle is crap. Also the premier league has far more tv money and allows outside investment which we in Germany don't want, even the smaller clubs want to be German owned, therefore of course the clubs have more money.
There is a wide cross section in my local bar (Hannover, Bremen, Wolfsburg, Braunschweig etc), none of them want an Abramovitch or a Mansour, that's not to say the English way is wrong, simply that most Germans want the league run the way it is.
Bayern have always been strong but they don't always win the title, that won't happen in the future either. You can't expect Dortmund to be on our level yet in anycase, that will take years of work and investment.
Anyway as I'm a bit too old for the "My dad is bigger than your dad" stuff let's agree to disagree in a few areas, we are going around in circles, impasse has been reached.
Apart from that it's nice to be at the top of the pile, it won't last for ever, it never does. But by God I'll enjoy it as long as it does.

 

[supercrystal7]

1. No doubt it is a much stronger league. The Premiership has strengthened once again this season and the Bundesliga has gotten weaker. Quick examples. Leverkusen lost Schurrle, Dortmund lost Gotze and Schalke continue with a terrible manager. Only Wolfsburg have actually strengthened the team. Compare that with the investment Liverpool, Everton, City, Arsenal and Chelsea have made. Not just the team, but also the manager.

2. Dortmund won, because Bayern are going through what Dortmund are. Struggling to cope with a small squad fighting on all fronts. The difference is that Bayern realised this problem and invested heavily in squad players. Dortmund lost key first team players.

3. Spain at least has two teams capable of fighting equally. Germany just has one. Dortmund are comparable to Atletico. The manager has to be perfect and lucky with injuries to even begin to compete against the super powers. Not so with England. Even the French league may have two superpowers in the future.

4. Well that looks like the way things are going. Klopp is doing an unbelievable job, but as brilliant as he has been he made a few mistakes and he has to be literally perfect. He cannot make a mistake in anything he does to try keep up with Dortmund. City are the best team in England, but Chelsea can invest heavily and catch up with them next season. If United make top 4 they can invest and catch up. If Arsenal have finished paying off the stadium even they may be able to start competing. Unless Klopp can once again win the lottery and pick up world class players for nothing, there is no hope he can catch up to Bayern. The more realistic outcome is that Dortmund fall back and Klopp goes abroad.

I'm not really bothered enough to keep arguing about it to be fair, I would however like to point out that Schürrle is crap. Also the premier league has far more tv money and allows outside investment which we in Germany don't want, even the smaller clubs want to be German owned, therefore of course the clubs have more money.
There is a wide cross section in my local bar (Hannover, Bremen, Wolfsburg, Braunschweig etc), none of them want an Abramovitch or a Mansour, that's not to say the English way is wrong, simply that most Germans want the league run the way it is.
Bayern have always been strong but they don't always win the title, that won't happen in the future either. You can't expect Dortmund to be on our level yet in anycase, that will take years of work and investment.
Anyway as I'm a bit too old for the "My dad is bigger than your dad" stuff let's agree to disagree in a few areas, we are going around in circles, impasse has been reached.
Apart from that it's nice to be at the top of the pile, it won't last for ever, it never does. But by God I'll enjoy it as long as it does.

Fair enough and it's up to each league to make their own individual choices. I personally am happy to see the big investors in clubs, because it shakes things up. Without the investment in City and Chelsea I think the Premier League would not have been as exciting. Each league has things that make it special. I wish we could have better atmospheres, cheaper tickets, better travel and more youngsters coming through, but with everything there is always a price.

 

[Maldeika]

1. No doubt it is a much stronger league. The Premiership has strengthened once again this season and the Bundesliga has gotten weaker. Quick examples. Leverkusen lost Schurrle, Dortmund lost Gotze and Schalke continue with a terrible manager. Only Wolfsburg have actually strengthened the team. Compare that with the investment Liverpool, Everton, City, Arsenal and Chelsea have made. Not just the team, but also the manager.

2. Dortmund won, because Bayern are going through what Dortmund are. Struggling to cope with a small squad fighting on all fronts. The difference is that Bayern realised this problem and invested heavily in squad players. Dortmund lost key first team players.

3. Spain at least has two teams capable of fighting equally. Germany just has one. Dortmund are comparable to Atletico. The manager has to be perfect and lucky with injuries to even begin to compete against the super powers. Not so with England. Even the French league may have two superpowers in the future.

4. Well that looks like the way things are going. Klopp is doing an unbelievable job, but as brilliant as he has been he made a few mistakes and he has to be literally perfect. He cannot make a mistake in anything he does to try keep up with Dortmund. City are the best team in England, but Chelsea can invest heavily and catch up with them next season. If United make top 4 they can invest and catch up. If Arsenal have finished paying off the stadium even they may be able to start competing. Unless Klopp can once again win the lottery and pick up world class players for nothing, there is no hope he can catch up to Bayern. The more realistic outcome is that Dortmund fall back and Klopp goes abroad.

I'm not really bothered enough to keep arguing about it to be fair, I would however like to point out that Schürrle is crap. Also the premier league has far more tv money and allows outside investment which we in Germany don't want, even the smaller clubs want to be German owned, therefore of course the clubs have more money.
There is a wide cross section in my local bar (Hannover, Bremen, Wolfsburg, Braunschweig etc), none of them want an Abramovitch or a Mansour, that's not to say the English way is wrong, simply that most Germans want the league run the way it is.
Bayern have always been strong but they don't always win the title, that won't happen in the future either. You can't expect Dortmund to be on our level yet in anycase, that will take years of work and investment.
Anyway as I'm a bit too old for the "My dad is bigger than your dad" stuff let's agree to disagree in a few areas, we are going around in circles, impasse has been reached.
Apart from that it's nice to be at the top of the pile, it won't last for ever, it never does. But by God I'll enjoy it as long as it does.

Fair enough and it's up to each league to make their own individual choices. I personally am happy to see the big investors in clubs, because it shakes things up. Without the investment in City and Chelsea I think the Premier League would not have been as exciting. Each league has things that make it special. I wish we could have better atmospheres, cheaper tickets, better travel and more youngsters coming through, but with everything there is always a price.

I think different. The money of the investors just increased the wage level and maybe shifted the balance from club A to club B - it did not increase the overall quality. The advantage is only to the ones with the new money - not to the others who cannot compete with the new prices.

If you would take that modell to Germany - and maybe somebody would invest into Freiburg, Stuttgart and Hertha - at the end there would be clubs like Schalke or even Dortmund, that do not have any chance to compete - they would not have money from new investors as well as they would not get the money out of the European competitions - whereas a club like Bayern will not like it but still would stay were it is (apart from the blow-up years).

The EPL was always different. When I looked into the EPL deeper the first time I just did not know that it was not only the clubs with Sheiks or Russian Billionaires who were owned by investors but nearly all of the clubs in the league. Before that I thought that your clubs were fans' clubs like in Germany. The club structure is something that is deeply implemented in the German culture - not only with football clubs. I am living in a 8000-inhabitant-town with more than 50 clubs - sports clubs, singing clubs, bird clubs, cultural clubs etc. - all built up and registered in the same way the football clubs are.

 

[supercrystal7]

I think different. The money of the investors just increased the wage level and maybe shifted the balance from club A to club B - it did not increase the overall quality. The advantage is only to the ones with the new money - not to the others who cannot compete with the new prices.

If you would take that modell to Germany - and maybe somebody would invest into Freiburg, Stuttgart and Hertha - at the end there would be clubs like Schalke or even Dortmund, that do not have any chance to compete - they would not have money from new investors as well as they would not get the money out of the European competitions - whereas a club like Bayern will not like it but still would stay were it is (apart from the blow-up years).

The EPL was always different. When I looked into the EPL deeper the first time I just did not know that it was not only the clubs with Sheiks or Russian Billionaires who were owned by investors but nearly all of the clubs in the league. Before that I thought that your clubs were fans' clubs like in Germany. The club structure is something that is deeply implemented in the German culture - not only with football clubs. I am living in a 8000-inhabitant-town with more than 50 clubs - sports clubs, singing clubs, bird clubs, cultural clubs etc. - all built up and registered in the same way the football clubs are.

The thing is the investment does more than shift the balance, because it allows good players to trickle down to the smaller teams. It also means clubs like Everton can hold on to their players or only sell them for a healthy profit. This season in the Premiership we have 6 teams all around the same level.

The thing is even in the Premiership clubs like Liverpool and Newcastle have managed to compete to a certain extent, because of TV revenue and ticket sales. Hertha would be the most obvious club to gain heavy investment, but so would Dortmund. Even if they did not it would mean the new rich clubs would pay a huge sum to gain their players allowing them to invest in the squad. A good example of this is Everton and a bad example is Tottenham. Still there are many faults with the Premiership and neither is perfect and both have their benefits.

I think it was a shame for the Bundesliga, because it was very close to exploding on a world stage. People around the world will follow what they consider to be the highest quality league. Too often I hear Germans saying that it's only down to a lack of a colonial empire why they lack viewing figures. This is partly true, but when I grew up Serie A was regarded as the best league and every kid watched it on a Sunday. Then it became La Liga, before it became the Premiership.

 

[Maldeika]

I think different. The money of the investors just increased the wage level and maybe shifted the balance from club A to club B - it did not increase the overall quality. The advantage is only to the ones with the new money - not to the others who cannot compete with the new prices.

If you would take that modell to Germany - and maybe somebody would invest into Freiburg, Stuttgart and Hertha - at the end there would be clubs like Schalke or even Dortmund, that do not have any chance to compete - they would not have money from new investors as well as they would not get the money out of the European competitions - whereas a club like Bayern will not like it but still would stay were it is (apart from the blow-up years).

The EPL was always different. When I looked into the EPL deeper the first time I just did not know that it was not only the clubs with Sheiks or Russian Billionaires who were owned by investors but nearly all of the clubs in the league. Before that I thought that your clubs were fans' clubs like in Germany. The club structure is something that is deeply implemented in the German culture - not only with football clubs. I am living in a 8000-inhabitant-town with more than 50 clubs - sports clubs, singing clubs, bird clubs, cultural clubs etc. - all built up and registered in the same way the football clubs are.

The thing is the investment does more than shift the balance, because it allows good players to trickle down to the smaller teams. It also means clubs like Everton can hold on to their players or only sell them for a healthy profit. This season in the Premiership we have 6 teams all around the same level.

The thing is even in the Premiership clubs like Liverpool and Newcastle have managed to compete to a certain extent, because of TV revenue and ticket sales. Hertha would be the most obvious club to gain heavy investment, but so would Dortmund. Even if they did not it would mean the new rich clubs would pay a huge sum to gain their players allowing them to invest in the squad. A good example of this is Everton and a bad example is Tottenham. Still there are many faults with the Premiership and neither is perfect and both have their benefits.

I think it was a shame for the Bundesliga, because it was very close to exploding on a world stage. People around the world will follow what they consider to be the highest quality league. Too often I hear Germans saying that it's only down to a lack of a colonial empire why they lack viewing figures. This is partly true, but when I grew up Serie A was regarded as the best league and every kid watched it on a Sunday. Then it became La Liga, before it became the Premiership.

You are only talking about this year - not the recent years before, or? I think this year is different in the EPL maybe because the big teams are having issues - new coaches, new systems... That just gives the second row a chance. It was not balanced like this before and I believe that will change again when things are sorted. And the same story goes with the Bundesliga. No team, and no Bayern team in history, had the runs the current Bayern team has. The records are just immense. The 81 points of Dortmund in 2011/12 were already an unbelieveable run but Bayern beat that with their 91 - and if you look in the calendar year 2013: Bayern had 93 points out of 99 with one match less because of the club world cup this week.

And you have to differ between the Europeans and the other part of the world. I think in Europe there is a lot nations that watch the Bundesliga. The northern European countries somehow are watching a lot of the EPL - but Eastern Europe and the countries surrounding Germany are often more in the Bundesliga than into the EPL. The interest in La Liga only refers to Barca and Real Madrid. Yes, the interest in Europe has often shifted.

The other markets - the EPL just has done the ground works in new markets like Asia as the first. That just cannot be taken away. And English is the usual second language for a lot of the people. The quality of the league does not matter if you already caught the interest of the people for a league or club. You might get some interested - but not the big amounts. Bayern has the chance - like Barcelona - to draw an interest because of the CL wins - but it is not an interest for the league but for the team.