Bundesliga review part 2. the new one :)

[Bembeltown]

After Germany winning the World Cup our U19 Team is going to play the final of the EC now as well. :)

Marc Stendera of Eintracht Frankfurt had an awesome game (1 goal, 2 assists) in the 4 - 0 twatting of our beloved neighbours Austria.

Davie Selke from Bremen is currently top scorer of the tournament with 6 goals.

Final will be played against Portugal.

 

[Puppet Master Silva]

After Germany winning the World Cup our U19 Team is going to play the final of the EC now as well. :)

Marc Stendera of Eintracht Frankfurt had an awesome game (1 goal, 2 assists) in the 4 - 0 twatting of our beloved neighbours Austria.

Davie Selke from Bremen is currently top scorer of the tournament with 6 goals.

Final will be played against Portugal.

Everyone on here will be supporting Portugal and Rony Lopes.

 

[Bembeltown]

After Germany winning the World Cup our U19 Team is going to play the final of the EC now as well. :)

Marc Stendera of Eintracht Frankfurt had an awesome game (1 goal, 2 assists) in the 4 - 0 twatting of our beloved neighbours Austria.

Davie Selke from Bremen is currently top scorer of the tournament with 6 goals.

Final will be played against Portugal.

Everyone on here will be supporting Portugal and Rony Lopes.

That´s fine as long as the outcome is similar to when you were supporting the Argies in the WC final. ;)

 

[Alex - Not City Matters]

<a class="postlink" href="http://thebundesligauk.wordpress.com/2014/07/30/red-bull-revolution/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://thebundesligauk.wordpress.com/20 ... evolution/</a>

My opinion on Red Bull Leipzig, and whether they'll be good or bad for German football.

All feedback is appreciated.

 

[Bembeltown]

http://thebundesligauk.wordpress.com/2014/07/30/red-bull-revolution/

My opinion on Red Bull Leipzig, and whether they'll be good or bad for German football.

All feedback is appreciated.

Well my stance on RB is clear and there is nothing good about the project at all, but we discussed this already multiple times on here. Some people think its what German Football needs, others will disagree.

Two points that you didnt mention:

1. RB basically destroyed the two local clubs Lok Leipzig and Chemie Leipzig as well. Yes, one club is full of Nazi scum and the other one is full of left wing scum, but it doesnt change the fact that there were two clubs around in Leipzig with history which will disappear over the next years.

2. The "business" RB does shows already how much they care about financial fair play and football as such. There was this one player in Austria who was playing for Rapid Wien. red Bull Salzburg wanted to buy him, but he was not allowed to transfer within Austria. So RB Leipzig bought him and loaned him out to Salzburg immediately.

Same with spending obscene amounts of money on young players and leaving other clubs no chance to sign them/ruining the prices.

Red Bull needs to be stopped by the DFB, and its not just the fans who complain about them, but coaches and managers as well.

 

[Innsbruckblue]

http://thebundesligauk.wordpress.com/2014/07/30/red-bull-revolution/

My opinion on Red Bull Leipzig, and whether they'll be good or bad for German football.

All feedback is appreciated.

Well my stance on RB is clear and there is nothing good about the project at all, but we discussed this already multiple times on here. Some people think its what German Football needs, others will disagree.

Two points that you didnt mention:

1. RB basically destroyed the two local clubs Lok Leipzig and Chemie Leipzig as well. Yes, one club is full of Nazi scum and the other one is full of left wing scum, but it doesnt change the fact that there were two clubs around in Leipzig with history which will disappear over the next years.

2. The "business" RB does shows already how much they care about financial fair play and football as such. There was this one player in Austria who was playing for Rapid Wien. red Bull Salzburg wanted to buy him, but he was not allowed to transfer within Austria. So RB Leipzig bought him and loaned him out to Salzburg immediately.

Same with spending obscene amounts of money on young players and leaving other clubs no chance to sign them/ruining the prices.

Red Bull needs to be stopped by the DFB, and its not just the fans who complain about them, but coaches and managers as well.

Had a read of the article. I can understand why some German football fans are against RB, however some points need to be raised....

SSV Markranstädt still exists as a club - it was not wiped off the map.
RB did not destroy Lok or Chemie - Chemie went under due to lack of funds (refusing RB's financial aid didn't help here. In fact, Chemie have been reformed as a fan-owned club). Lok is another club which has been badly run, and accepted financial aid from RB a couple of years ago to help keep them alive (similar to Bayern and BVB - are RB destroying clubs here?). The truth is that both 'traditional' clubs in Leipzig (how traditional are they really?) have gone bust on numerous occasions due to a lack of money, been restarted, changed their names, etc.
Your article fails to go into any in-depth explanations - how are RB good or bad for German football? You don't actually give an opinion either way. What reasons could there be for RB being good or bad?
As for people saying they're inflating transfer fees, etc - this really reminds me of fans of other English clubs having a go at City!
Try watching football in Leipzig - if those two clubs with 'history' disappear, which they have done very often (VfB-Lok-VfB-Lok, Chemie-Sachsen-Chemie, etc.), then it's their own fault for not trying to attract more fans to their respective stadiums, and for having a 'small-time', local attitude, whereby it's more important to hate your local rivals (plus Halle, Chemnitz, Dresden, etc) than attempt to expand and grow the teams and stop being so provincial.
The truth is that in Leipzig, the two 'traditional' teams (average gates of fewer than 5,000 for a long, long time now) are disliked by the majority of the inhabitants due to their refusal to look at the bigger picture, their 'need' to despise the other team (left-wing, right-wing bullshit) and the way both clubs have constantly approached the city to bail them out of financial difficulties. The local people have been given the one thing they have always wanted - hope and belief in a well-run football club for the city, one which attracts families (not skinheads or lefties) and large crowds to the Zentralstadion - no hooliganism here, folks.
Maybe those fans of other 'Traditionsvereine' should also look at the bigger picture - why are RB attracting so many fans to games? Why have they been welcomed with open arms in a city with two 'traditional' clubs? Could RB be doing something right here? Maybe RB is being used to sell a product - any different to Wolfsburg or Leverkusen?
I'm undecided as to whether RB is good or bad for German football as a whole, but one thing is for certain - RB is definitely good for Leipzig.

 

[Alex - Not City Matters]

http://thebundesligauk.wordpress.com/2014/07/30/red-bull-revolution/

My opinion on Red Bull Leipzig, and whether they'll be good or bad for German football.

All feedback is appreciated.

Well my stance on RB is clear and there is nothing good about the project at all, but we discussed this already multiple times on here. Some people think its what German Football needs, others will disagree.

Two points that you didnt mention:

1. RB basically destroyed the two local clubs Lok Leipzig and Chemie Leipzig as well. Yes, one club is full of Nazi scum and the other one is full of left wing scum, but it doesnt change the fact that there were two clubs around in Leipzig with history which will disappear over the next years.

2. The "business" RB does shows already how much they care about financial fair play and football as such. There was this one player in Austria who was playing for Rapid Wien. red Bull Salzburg wanted to buy him, but he was not allowed to transfer within Austria. So RB Leipzig bought him and loaned him out to Salzburg immediately.

Same with spending obscene amounts of money on young players and leaving other clubs no chance to sign them/ruining the prices.

Red Bull needs to be stopped by the DFB, and its not just the fans who complain about them, but coaches and managers as well.

To be honest, I am against what Red Bull do, not the fact that they spend money but the fact it's just a commercial ploy for their products. However, I do still recognise the positives for the area and Eastern Germany on a whole.
I would say that, the negatives do outweigh the positives though.


Btw, who was the Austrian players you mentioned?

 

[Alex - Not City Matters]

http://thebundesligauk.wordpress.com/2014/07/30/red-bull-revolution/

My opinion on Red Bull Leipzig, and whether they'll be good or bad for German football.

All feedback is appreciated.

Well my stance on RB is clear and there is nothing good about the project at all, but we discussed this already multiple times on here. Some people think its what German Football needs, others will disagree.

Two points that you didnt mention:

1. RB basically destroyed the two local clubs Lok Leipzig and Chemie Leipzig as well. Yes, one club is full of Nazi scum and the other one is full of left wing scum, but it doesnt change the fact that there were two clubs around in Leipzig with history which will disappear over the next years.

2. The "business" RB does shows already how much they care about financial fair play and football as such. There was this one player in Austria who was playing for Rapid Wien. red Bull Salzburg wanted to buy him, but he was not allowed to transfer within Austria. So RB Leipzig bought him and loaned him out to Salzburg immediately.

Same with spending obscene amounts of money on young players and leaving other clubs no chance to sign them/ruining the prices.

Red Bull needs to be stopped by the DFB, and its not just the fans who complain about them, but coaches and managers as well.

Had a read of the article. I can understand why some German football fans are against RB, however some points need to be raised....

SSV Markranstädt still exists as a club - it was not wiped off the map.
RB did not destroy Lok or Chemie - Chemie went under due to lack of funds (refusing RB's financial aid didn't help here. In fact, Chemie have been reformed as a fan-owned club). Lok is another club which has been badly run, and accepted financial aid from RB a couple of years ago to help keep them alive (similar to Bayern and BVB - are RB destroying clubs here?). The truth is that both 'traditional' clubs in Leipzig (how traditional are they really?) have gone bust on numerous occasions due to a lack of money, been restarted, changed their names, etc.
Your article fails to go into any in-depth explanations - how are RB good or bad for German football? You don't actually give an opinion either way. What reasons could there be for RB being good or bad?
As for people saying they're inflating transfer fees, etc - this really reminds me of fans of other English clubs having a go at City!
Try watching football in Leipzig - if those two clubs with 'history' disappear, which they have done very often (VfB-Lok-VfB-Lok, Chemie-Sachsen-Chemie, etc.), then it's their own fault for not trying to attract more fans to their respective stadiums, and for having a 'small-time', local attitude, whereby it's more important to hate your local rivals (plus Halle, Chemnitz, Dresden, etc) than attempt to expand and grow the teams and stop being so provincial.
The truth is that in Leipzig, the two 'traditional' teams (average gates of fewer than 5,000 for a long, long time now) are disliked by the majority of the inhabitants due to their refusal to look at the bigger picture, their 'need' to despise the other team (left-wing, right-wing bullshit) and the way both clubs have constantly approached the city to bail them out of financial difficulties. The local people have been given the one thing they have always wanted - hope and belief in a well-run football club for the city, one which attracts families (not skinheads or lefties) and large crowds to the Zentralstadion - no hooliganism here, folks.
Maybe those fans of other 'Traditionsvereine' should also look at the bigger picture - why are RB attracting so many fans to games? Why have they been welcomed with open arms in a city with two 'traditional' clubs? Could RB be doing something right here? Maybe RB is being used to sell a product - any different to Wolfsburg or Leverkusen?
I'm undecided as to whether RB is good or bad for German football as a whole, but one thing is for certain - RB is definitely good for Leipzig.

A good post in general, and explains many of the positive reasons about what RB are doing.

In my article, I didn't intend to give a one sided opinion, or my personal view. I wanted to give a brief overview on what RB are doing, for those that may not know. I left it up to reader to decide their own opinion, instead of giving a one sided bias view.

 

[Innsbruckblue]

[/quote]
A good post in general, and explains many of the positive reasons about what RB are doing.

In my article, I didn't intend to give a one sided opinion, or my personal view. I wanted to give a brief overview on what RB are doing, for those that may not know. I left it up to reader to decide their own opinion, instead of giving a one sided bias view.[/quote]

At least you haven't fallen into the trap of hating RB and yet not being able to back up your opinion with reasons. Unlike some other German-based football supporters on this forum.

 

[Ruhr]

At least you haven't fallen into the trap of hating RB and yet not being able to back up your opinion with reasons. Unlike some other German-based football supporters on this forum.

while your only argument is, that Leipzig deserves a Bundesliga club?

 

[Innsbruckblue]

At least you haven't fallen into the trap of hating RB and yet not being able to back up your opinion with reasons. Unlike some other German-based football supporters on this forum.

while your only argument is, that Leipzig deserves a Bundesliga club?

Not at all. Nowhere 'deserves' a Bundesliga club. And I don't think you're doing yourself any favours by assuming that that is my only reason. I've had 'discussions' previously with German-based fans on this forum before and none has been able to give me a reasonable response to the question of why RB is so bad for German football. Until that happens, I will ignore all the hysterical rantings about tradition and fan-owned clubs being better for the health of German football.

 

[Rhineland]

At least you haven't fallen into the trap of hating RB and yet not being able to back up your opinion with reasons. Unlike some other German-based football supporters on this forum.

while your only argument is, that Leipzig deserves a Bundesliga club?

Not at all. Nowhere 'deserves' a Bundesliga club. And I don't think you're doing yourself any favours by assuming that that is my only reason. I've had 'discussions' previously with German-based fans on this forum before and none has been able to give me a reasonable response to the question of why RB is so bad for German football. Until that happens, I will ignore all the hysterical rantings about tradition and fan-owned clubs being better for the health of German football.

you're not exactly enamoured with the idea to acknowledge reasonable responds to that question anyway

 

[Bembeltown]

Germany´s U 19 team won the European Cup yesterday evening with a 1-0 win over Portugal.

Stand out players of the tournament were Davie Selke from Werder Bremen and Marc Stendera from Eintracht Frankfurt (glad we just extended his contract).

 

[Innsbruckblue]

[/quote]you're not exactly enamoured with the idea to acknowledge reasonable responds to that question anyway[/quote]

Oh, but I am, Rhineland. I've been waiting 5 years for somebody to explain to me why RB is so bad for German football. And when I say 'explain', I mean to adequately support their arguments and not resort to childish responses. Let me list the reasons given as to why RB is the 'devil':

The club has no tradition - this is indeed true. But what's the problem? Every new club has to build its own tradition.
The club exists to sell a drink - mmm, Leverkusen exists to promote Bayer, Wolfsburg to promote VW. Every club has shirt advertising, stadium naming rights, etc. Therefore, every club promotes a product.
The club is destroying football traditions - if football traditions mean attracting Nazis to games and attacking women and children, then let's keep tradition. If tradition means having the same teams forever at the top of the Bundesliga, then fine. If tradition mean Bayern winning exactly half the Bundesliga titles, so be it.
The club goes against the 50+1 rule - fair point. But what exactly does this rule provide, except for an extremely limited say in the way the club is run?

I'm not German, but have lived in German-speaking countries for 12 years. I've followed German football for longer. I've researched the history of football in both the West and the East, and yet, to this day, nobody has been able to explain to me why RB is such a bad thing for German football. As I've already said, RB has revived Leipzig's passion and love for football, but we could of course go back to the days of no money in eastern football, with run-down stadia and rampant hooliganism.
If you can convince me, with reasonably-supported arguments, as to why RB is such a bad thing for German football, I'm all ears.

 

[Alex - Not City Matters]

Germany´s U 19 team won the European Cup yesterday evening with a 1-0 win over Portugal.

Stand out players of the tournament were Davie Selke from Werder Bremen and Marc Stendera from Eintracht Frankfurt (glad we just extended his contract).

Doesn't matter anyway, he'll just be sold to Freiburg for peanuts in a few years!

 

[Alex - Not City Matters]

What's everyone's predictions for tonight's 2. Bundesliga opener. Fortuna vs Braunschweig

I'll go for 2-1 Düsseldorf.

My quick preview of the match, and a brief overview of the rest of the Matchdays games - thebundesligauk.wordpress.com/2014/08/01/opening-match-day-of-the-2-bundesliga/

 

[cptaidan88]

Oh, but I am, Rhineland. I've been waiting 5 years for somebody to explain to me why RB is so bad for German football. And when I say 'explain', I mean to adequately support their arguments and not resort to childish responses. Let me list the reasons given as to why RB is the 'devil':

The club has no tradition - this is indeed true. But what's the problem? Every new club has to build its own tradition.
The club exists to sell a drink - mmm, Leverkusen exists to promote Bayer, Wolfsburg to promote VW. Every club has shirt advertising, stadium naming rights, etc. Therefore, every club promotes a product.
The club is destroying football traditions - if football traditions mean attracting Nazis to games and attacking women and children, then let's keep tradition. If tradition means having the same teams forever at the top of the Bundesliga, then fine. If tradition mean Bayern winning exactly half the Bundesliga titles, so be it.
The club goes against the 50+1 rule - fair point. But what exactly does this rule provide, except for an extremely limited say in the way the club is run?

I'm not German, but have lived in German-speaking countries for 12 years. I've followed German football for longer. I've researched the history of football in both the West and the East, and yet, to this day, nobody has been able to explain to me why RB is such a bad thing for German football. As I've already said, RB has revived Leipzig's passion and love for football, but we could of course go back to the days of no money in eastern football, with run-down stadia and rampant hooliganism.
If you can convince me, with reasonably-supported arguments, as to why RB is such a bad thing for German football, I'm all ears.

I'd like to start by saying I am not quite as against the 'project' as many on here are.

There are numerous positives to have come from Red Bulls investment. Leipzig having a decent team playing in a good stadium which is definitely a positive for the people of Leipzig, particularly as you say they have avoided the extreme hooligan elements. Its good too that Eastern Germany will soon have a representative in the Bundesliga. A further accidental benefit will have undoubtedly occured as they have bought players whilst climbing the leagues, as that money has been filtered through clubs which wouldn't have received it otherwise. I think Leipzig will be in the Champions League in 5 seasons and I will look forward to visiting there as much as I have anywhere else.

However to address your closing statement - I'd say Red Bulls involvement is a bad thing for world football, not just German football.

Sponsorship of shirts and stadiums is way of clubs bringing in money and it has become accepted in modern football. The difference here is that Red Bull Leipzig is solely a vehicle for Red Bull to make money, and I fear it could lead to similar teams being formed and it could become another accepted part of modern football. It is no different to the theoretical teams McDonalds United, Coca Cola City, or FC Budweiser.

To my knowledge, prior to the formation of RB Leipzig, Red Bull had no connection to Leipzig. Red Bull wanted a team in the German league and chose Leipzig for a couple of reasons. Firstly, there was a modern stadium fit for purpose, which was essentially vacant. Secondly, there was no team that could provide serious competition in Leipzig to stop them becoming successful.

There is a huge difference between RB and the likes of Leverkusen, Wolfsburg, and PSV. Those clubs weren't created to advertise a product. Advertising their products may well be a by-product of the clubs competing at this level, but they were set up as sports clubs for their employees and have grown from there. They have an affinity to the area because they employ a large proportion of the local population.

If they had called the team FC Leipzig, or something neutral and not had such a ridiculous badge, then there would not have been much if any opposition. They could have got sufficient brand awareness through shirt sponsorship and stadium naming rights etc, and the team would represent the city rather than the company who own it.

I can appreciate the people of Leipzig feeling differently but unfortunately the negatives massively outweigh the positives for me, and it leaves a really bad taste in the mouth.

 

[Alex - Not City Matters]

I was nearly right!

Full time: Dusseldorf 2 - 2 Braunschweig (Liendl 34, Benschop 65, Reichel 60, Nielsen, 84)

 

[Bembeltown]

Can only second what Aidan wrote and maybe he manages to bring the point across better than I am able to do.

But in the end RB doesn´t care about football, but about advertising their product.

Insbruckblue mentioned that the reactions from the fan side are hysteric, however there are now more and more officials raising their voice against RB as well (coaches, managers etc.).

Its not just the matchgoing Fans or Ultras....Especially the point about RB signing young players for absurd fees is a problem. That and shenanigans like transfering players between RB teams to bend the rules of contracts.

If "projects" like Red Bull are the future of football then I am happy to pass on that experience. If that means that I need to follow my club down to the 2nd or 3rd division again, well so be it.

At least I will be able to see proper teams with history, fans with passion and affordable football while the plastics can occupy the first tier, sit there in silence and pay stupid amounts of money and enjoy their CL football.

 

[Innsbruckblue]

Oh, but I am, Rhineland. I've been waiting 5 years for somebody to explain to me why RB is so bad for German football. And when I say 'explain', I mean to adequately support their arguments and not resort to childish responses. Let me list the reasons given as to why RB is the 'devil':

The club has no tradition - this is indeed true. But what's the problem? Every new club has to build its own tradition.
The club exists to sell a drink - mmm, Leverkusen exists to promote Bayer, Wolfsburg to promote VW. Every club has shirt advertising, stadium naming rights, etc. Therefore, every club promotes a product.
The club is destroying football traditions - if football traditions mean attracting Nazis to games and attacking women and children, then let's keep tradition. If tradition means having the same teams forever at the top of the Bundesliga, then fine. If tradition mean Bayern winning exactly half the Bundesliga titles, so be it.
The club goes against the 50+1 rule - fair point. But what exactly does this rule provide, except for an extremely limited say in the way the club is run?

I'm not German, but have lived in German-speaking countries for 12 years. I've followed German football for longer. I've researched the history of football in both the West and the East, and yet, to this day, nobody has been able to explain to me why RB is such a bad thing for German football. As I've already said, RB has revived Leipzig's passion and love for football, but we could of course go back to the days of no money in eastern football, with run-down stadia and rampant hooliganism.
If you can convince me, with reasonably-supported arguments, as to why RB is such a bad thing for German football, I'm all ears.

I'd like to start by saying I am not quite as against the 'project' as many on here are.

There are numerous positives to have come from Red Bulls investment. Leipzig having a decent team playing in a good stadium which is definitely a positive for the people of Leipzig, particularly as you say they have avoided the extreme hooligan elements. Its good too that Eastern Germany will soon have a representative in the Bundesliga. A further accidental benefit will have undoubtedly occured as they have bought players whilst climbing the leagues, as that money has been filtered through clubs which wouldn't have received it otherwise. I think Leipzig will be in the Champions League in 5 seasons and I will look forward to visiting there as much as I have anywhere else.

However to address your closing statement - I'd say Red Bulls involvement is a bad thing for world football, not just German football.

Sponsorship of shirts and stadiums is way of clubs bringing in money and it has become accepted in modern football. The difference here is that Red Bull Leipzig is solely a vehicle for Red Bull to make money, and I fear it could lead to similar teams being formed and it could become another accepted part of modern football. It is no different to the theoretical teams McDonalds United, Coca Cola City, or FC Budweiser.

To my knowledge, prior to the formation of RB Leipzig, Red Bull had no connection to Leipzig. Red Bull wanted a team in the German league and chose Leipzig for a couple of reasons. Firstly, there was a modern stadium fit for purpose, which was essentially vacant. Secondly, there was no team that could provide serious competition in Leipzig to stop them becoming successful.

There is a huge difference between RB and the likes of Leverkusen, Wolfsburg, and PSV. Those clubs weren't created to advertise a product. Advertising their products may well be a by-product of the clubs competing at this level, but they were set up as sports clubs for their employees and have grown from there. They have an affinity to the area because they employ a large proportion of the local population.

If they had called the team FC Leipzig, or something neutral and not had such a ridiculous badge, then there would not have been much if any opposition. They could have got sufficient brand awareness through shirt sponsorship and stadium naming rights etc, and the team would represent the city rather than the company who own it.

I can appreciate the people of Leipzig feeling differently but unfortunately the negatives massively outweigh the positives for me, and it leaves a really bad taste in the mouth.

Thank you, cptaidan. Finally, a reasonable, well-thought out reply to my questions. You are indeed correct that Red Bull had no prior connection with Leipzig, and I like your analogy of McDonald's Utd!