Bundesliga review

[Innsbruckblue]

I believe there is also some resentment held towards Leverkusen too. Have they been aided by large investment like Salzburg and Hoffenheim?

Just like the vast majority of 'traditional' Bundesliga teams.
Back home in Blighty, everybody thinks that the German model is somehow better than the British one. Ask yourselves the question why no team from the former GDR has ever been able to establish itself in the top flight. The whole system is run on money. After the wall came down, every 'western' team bought up the best from the east and basically killed those teams off. The eastern teams don't have the luxury of Porsche, BMW, Adidas, Mercedes, VW, Frankfurt Airport, DB, Telekom, etc, based in their cities, pumping money into the local football teams. The Bundesliga is geared up for the teams which have the most money and income from sponsors. Leverkusen was formed as a works club, like PSV Eindhoven, funded by the company, but those fans of 'traditional' clubs really f*in annoy me, when they get so agitated when a 'little' or 'new' club starts to challenge the status quo, conveniently forgetting that their own clubs have been funded for many years by out side investment.

 

[MSP]

I believe there is also some resentment held towards Leverkusen too. Have they been aided by large investment like Salzburg and Hoffenheim?

Just like the vast majority of 'traditional' Bundesliga teams.
Back home in Blighty, everybody thinks that the German model is somehow better than the British one. Ask yourselves the question why no team from the former GDR has ever been able to establish itself in the top flight. The whole system is run on money. After the wall came down, every 'western' team bought up the best from the east and basically killed those teams off. The eastern teams don't have the luxury of Porsche, BMW, Adidas, Mercedes, VW, Frankfurt Airport, DB, Telekom, etc, based in their cities, pumping money into the local football teams. The Bundesliga is geared up for the teams which have the most money and income from sponsors. Leverkusen was formed as a works club, like PSV Eindhoven, funded by the company, but those fans of 'traditional' clubs really f*in annoy me, when they get so agitated when a 'little' or 'new' club starts to challenge the status quo, conveniently forgetting that their own clubs have been funded for many years by out side investment.

Fantastic post, I had numerous arguments with "we do it on proper way" Bundesliga twats but never really figured the east germany clubs part.

90% of Bundesliga fans are Gunners clones, they are saying same crap you hear from Arsenal fans

 

[Bembeltown]

@Leipzigblue: Sorry didnt really had anything to add to what Mala (and I think Ruhr) mentioned earlier when the discussion started.

First of all I don´t think there is a "best" model...The English model works for the UK, the German one seems to work for Germany.

The reason why the majority of football fans in Germany despises the likes of Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim etc. is most likely because we like to see teams "work" their way up without money infusions of sponsors or some rich sugardaddy.

I think there are multiple samples of clubs in the Bundesliga which can field a competitive side without having the luxury of beeing able to spend millions.
E.g. Nürnberg, Mainz, Freiburg, Frankfurt.

Eintracht Frankfurt is located in the financial captial of Europe (lots of potential sponsors), yet the money we are able to spend is laughable compared to the likes of Schalke, Bayern etc. ( I think we are placed 11th in league when it comes to the cost of our team).
Freiburg and Mainz are even lower I would assume....

All those teams worked up their way from the 2nd or even 3rd division and are getting established in the top flight.

Eintracht Braunschweig is most likely getting promoted this season as well and they havent been in the Bundesliga for ages and I am pretty sure everyone will welcome them with open arms, simply because they delivered solid work over all the years and now earn the rewards.

I am pretty sure a club like Dynamo Dresden or Dynamo Dresden (both from the old DDR) could achieve something similar as well. It might not be as easy as for Hoffenheim who started somewhere in the lowest leagues and got promoted year in and year out, but they both have the potential imho.

In the end this whole topic is a difficult one to discuss (especially on a City board) and as stated in the beginning its two different models that crash here. Both sides are so used to "live" in this model that it sometimes might be hard to look past the model you are used to (not sure if that is the right term. Don´t think there is an equivalent to "Über den Tellerand schauen" in English, however if there is one I am sure Leipzigblue can help me out ;) ).

However I am pretty sure that none of the regular German posters on here is trying to force our opinion on you lot.
If someone is asking for our opinion, we state it, but I don´t have the feeling that we try to sell it as "the best".

Would be interesting to hear Bayern Blade´s opinion as he is living in both worlds so to speak.

90% of Bundesliga fans are Gunners clones, they are saying same crap you hear from Arsenal fans

Now that was just plain rude! :(

 

[MSP]

And truth what you proved in your post :)

Eintracht Braunschweig is most likely getting promoted this season as well and they havent been in the Bundesliga for ages and I am pretty sure everyone will welcome them with open arms, simply because they delivered solid work over all the years and now earn the rewards.

Sure you do, they'll fight for their life in Bundesliga and probably lose it, they're so loveable.

 

[bayern-flo2]

Concerning the former GDR:
It was a ruined country. I read that only 6% of their jobs were competitive according to western standard.
The economic situation after 1989 didn't turn out as wanted, because several mistakes were made.
- The wages were too high to compete with Western companies.
- Western companies bought eastern companies and shut them to avoid competitors
And so on.

And you must not forget that the players were people with families who lived behind the iron wall and were able to earn big money in the west.

By the way: As far as I know Bayern or better Uli Hoeneß has been against the plundering. The first and only player he bought from eastern Germany was Alexander Zickler in 1993.

 

[Maldeika]

There is something else with it. Apart from sponsoring of single persons companies will only sponsor you if they have a benefit from it. They do not do it without.

Money comes if you already are a success and have a name. The more success - the more money.

 

[ManCitizens.]

There is something else with it. Apart from sponsoring of single persons companies will only sponsor you if they have a benefit from it. They do not do it without.

Money comes if you already are a success and have a name. The more success - the more money.

In other words, the rich will always remain the rich.

If for example a Bundesliga 2 team produced the likes of Ozil, Muller, Kroos etc from the academy. Do you think they would stay at that club long enough to help build a club and win titles 5-10 years down the line, or do you think Bayern Adidas Audi Munich (should that not be your full name?) , Dortmund etc will come in and take the best talent promising instant success and a higher wage?

Your so called great model is just another way of ensuring the best clubs remain the best clubs forever.

 

[bayern-flo2]

Bayern Adidas Audi Munich (should that not be your full name?

As long as we bear names of big national companies and not mostly unknown names, ok :-)

Considering the german model Bayern is probably not the best example. Big talents in the late 60s and the Olympic stadium were the foundation for being a big and famous european club. Since the 80s the management (Hoeneß) made a lot of right decisions and only a few wrong decisions. Since the time of the expanded Champions League Bayern were in the situation to attend regulary and earn constantly money and improve their financial situation on and on.
Now Bayern is in a position were only big wrong decisions could be a danger. Building a new stadium for € 340 m with such a partner like 1859 Munich was a huge risk and maybe the reason for selling 10% of the shares to Audi (the money for the other 10% shares for Adidas were mostly used for the new stadium).

A club like Dortmund is a good example how to do it (since 2005), but also how you shouldn't do it without taking lethal risks (1994-2004). Bremen did a great job over the years. Mainz, Hannover, Freiburg, Frankfurt do it in a good way.

And clubs like Bayern and Dortmund are simply not able to buy every talent from other clubs...
Too many talents ;-)

I wouldn't say that the german model is the best! But the way it is in Germany suits me best.

 

[Maldeika]

There is something else with it. Apart from sponsoring of single persons companies will only sponsor you if they have a benefit from it. They do not do it without.

Money comes if you already are a success and have a name. The more success - the more money.

In other words, the rich will always remain the rich.

If for example a Bundesliga 2 team produced the likes of Ozil, Muller, Kroos etc from the academy. Do you think they would stay at that club long enough to help build a club and win titles 5-10 years down the line, or do you think Bayern Adidas Audi Munich (should that not be your full name?) , Dortmund etc will come in and take the best talent promising instant success and a higher wage?

Your so called great model is just another way of ensuring the best clubs remain the best clubs forever.

Why is it? There has been so many ups and downs in the Bundesliga in the recent years. You have to be able to have both in control and manage it very good - the success in sports and business. That that is not easy a lot of Bundesliga clubs show. Yes, Bayern would have to totally fuck it up to really fall down the ladder - but the last 2 years - even the last 4 or 5 show that that is not a one man show and you cannot be so sure that everything runs the way you want it.

But - Bayern is a bad example as they just have had the best management in the last 30 years. Take Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Hamburg, Dortmund - there is very good examples that it is not that easy to stay on top even if you have a good financial situation. And there is a lot of examples of clubs that make it in the Bundesliga and stay up - even compete sometimes in Europa - that do not have the financial backup.

To the talents - is it not just normal that a footballer tries to go there where he gets what is best for his development. Bayern lately did not get the best young talents - they do not want to sit on the bench. Some stay longer as they think it is best for their development - like Goretzka at 2nd Bundesliga club right now - but he will probably transfer next year. He is the next big talent who plays at a 2nd Bundesliga club and is 18 - all the Bundesliga clubs and some international clubs are after him. But that does not mean that he goes to the big clubs - he might go to a smaller club of the first league first where he has more guarantee to play.

When I see the ownership model of the NBA etc. I am so glad about the German model. What would you say if your club owners would say that they would get more public interest in London and would move the club there?

 

[bayern-flo2]

Ownershipmodel like NFL, NBA, NHL or MLB would be an absolute no-go for me!