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Bundesliga review
- Thread starter Ruhr
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Bembeltown
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Not attempting to quote anymore as this always seems to fuck up the formatting:
@leipzigblue: I indeed disagree with RB Leipzig as well. There are two well established clubs in Leipzig with Chemie and Lok. So I wonder why is there a need to establish a 3rd club out of nowhere?
The Red Bull clubs (Leipzig, Salzburg and the US one) are a bit of a different story as well as I think the only purpose of those clubs is to advertise the disgusting drink. ;)
@Dzeko´s right boot: Wolfsburg and Leverkusen are the only clubs in the top tier that are "owned" by a company. Wolfsburg belongs to Volkswagen and Leverkusen to "Bayer". So there are indeed the same resentment against those clubs as well.
You might have heard about the 50+1 rule which has the goal to avoid that companies are taking over football clubs and which is widely accepted in Germany (Wolfsburg and Leverkusen beeing the exception to the rule).
-- Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:41 pm --
But other than beeing the grumpy old German and I would like to provide a nice little link which could be of interest for the people interested in the Bundesliga (other than seeing the weekly summary on TV).
<a class="postlink" href="http://bundesligafanatic.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://bundesligafanatic.com/</a> is a pretty nice (english!) read and provides all sort of blogs, stories etc. about all the leagues and German football as such. :)
@leipzigblue: I indeed disagree with RB Leipzig as well. There are two well established clubs in Leipzig with Chemie and Lok. So I wonder why is there a need to establish a 3rd club out of nowhere?
The Red Bull clubs (Leipzig, Salzburg and the US one) are a bit of a different story as well as I think the only purpose of those clubs is to advertise the disgusting drink. ;)
@Dzeko´s right boot: Wolfsburg and Leverkusen are the only clubs in the top tier that are "owned" by a company. Wolfsburg belongs to Volkswagen and Leverkusen to "Bayer". So there are indeed the same resentment against those clubs as well.
You might have heard about the 50+1 rule which has the goal to avoid that companies are taking over football clubs and which is widely accepted in Germany (Wolfsburg and Leverkusen beeing the exception to the rule).
-- Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:41 pm --
But other than beeing the grumpy old German and I would like to provide a nice little link which could be of interest for the people interested in the Bundesliga (other than seeing the weekly summary on TV).
<a class="postlink" href="http://bundesligafanatic.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://bundesligafanatic.com/</a> is a pretty nice (english!) read and provides all sort of blogs, stories etc. about all the leagues and German football as such. :)
Bembeltown said:Not attempting to quote anymore as this always seems to fuck up the formatting:
@leipzigblue: I indeed disagree with RB Leipzig as well. There are two well established clubs in Leipzig with Chemie and Lok. So I wonder why is there a need to establish a 3rd club out of nowhere?
The Red Bull clubs (Leipzig, Salzburg and the US one) are a bit of a different story as well as I think the only purpose of those clubs is to advertise the disgusting drink. ;)
@Dzeko´s right boot: Wolfsburg and Leverkusen are the only clubs in the top tier that are "owned" by a company. Wolfsburg belongs to Volkswagen and Leverkusen to "Bayer". So there are indeed the same resentment against those clubs as well.
You might have heard about the 50+1 rule which has the goal to avoid that companies are taking over football clubs and which is widely accepted in Germany (Wolfsburg and Leverkusen beeing the exception to the rule).
-- Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:41 pm --
But other than beeing the grumpy old German and I would like to provide a nice little link which could be of interest for the people interested in the Bundesliga (other than seeing the weekly summary on TV).
<a class="postlink" href="http://bundesligafanatic.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://bundesligafanatic.com/</a> is a pretty nice (english!) read and provides all sort of blogs, stories etc. about all the league.
Thanks for the link Bembeltown.
Innsbruckblue
Well-Known Member
Bembeltown said:@leipzigblue: I indeed disagree with RB Leipzig as well. There are two well established clubs in Leipzig with Chemie and Lok. So I wonder why is there a need to establish a 3rd club out of nowhere?
Probably because the people of Leipzig have been longing for a team that has no political allegiance, ie, doesn't have Neonazi followers (Lok), or claims to be left-wing but still boos black players (Chemie).
RB is run as a family club, has youth teams from the age of 7 upwards and it is actually a pleasure to go to games without the fear of your kids or girlfriend getting caught up in trouble.
As I said in the previous post, Germany has a history of new clubs being formed either from old ones, from mergers or from nowhere. Why do people resent it now, but not in the past?
Ruhr
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Well, i don´t hate Hoffenheim, but i don´t want them in the Bundesliga.
When Hopp, their sponsor, came in, they were just relegated to the "Kreisliga", that is 9th division. That is sunday football, where players sit in the club home after the match, have three or four beers and watch Bundesliga on TV.
When they were promoted to 3rd division, they had an average attendance of about 1,600. These days it´s 27,000. So there must be some 25,000, who never went to football before or followed other clubs. No wonder, no one takes them seriously.
I visited their ground twice (because i like the nearby city of Heidelberg). It is not a football town. No atmosphere. Their away following is lousy. Yes, they have a right to be in the Bundesliga, but i could name easily 20 other clubs from lower leagues which would really add a special atmosphere to the Bundesliga with loyal and large fan groups.
Even Hoffenheim´s idea of creating a team of young regional german players has long gone. Now they are acting on the transfer market like any other team.
There had been clubs with a sugar daddy in the Bundesliga before. Fortuna Köln in the 1970s and Wattenscheid 09 in the 1990s. Their sponsors went bust, now they are in Division 4 and 5. And Uerdingen 05 dropped to Division 6, when the Bayer company left them. And that will happen to Hoffenheim sooner or later without Hopp.
Well, i know that Leipzig is the shithole of german football. There are good reasons not to support Chemie or Lok. But what Red Bull did with Austria Salzburg is not forgotten and the idea of founding a football club to sell more energy drinks is still the worst in german football. If that works, the Bundesliga will be soon full of Facebook, McDonalds and Coca Cola clubs.
When Hopp, their sponsor, came in, they were just relegated to the "Kreisliga", that is 9th division. That is sunday football, where players sit in the club home after the match, have three or four beers and watch Bundesliga on TV.
When they were promoted to 3rd division, they had an average attendance of about 1,600. These days it´s 27,000. So there must be some 25,000, who never went to football before or followed other clubs. No wonder, no one takes them seriously.
I visited their ground twice (because i like the nearby city of Heidelberg). It is not a football town. No atmosphere. Their away following is lousy. Yes, they have a right to be in the Bundesliga, but i could name easily 20 other clubs from lower leagues which would really add a special atmosphere to the Bundesliga with loyal and large fan groups.
Even Hoffenheim´s idea of creating a team of young regional german players has long gone. Now they are acting on the transfer market like any other team.
There had been clubs with a sugar daddy in the Bundesliga before. Fortuna Köln in the 1970s and Wattenscheid 09 in the 1990s. Their sponsors went bust, now they are in Division 4 and 5. And Uerdingen 05 dropped to Division 6, when the Bayer company left them. And that will happen to Hoffenheim sooner or later without Hopp.
Well, i know that Leipzig is the shithole of german football. There are good reasons not to support Chemie or Lok. But what Red Bull did with Austria Salzburg is not forgotten and the idea of founding a football club to sell more energy drinks is still the worst in german football. If that works, the Bundesliga will be soon full of Facebook, McDonalds and Coca Cola clubs.
DD
Well-Known Member
Ruhr said:Well, i don´t hate Hoffenheim, but i don´t want them in the Bundesliga.
When Hopp, their sponsor, came in, they were just relegated to the "Kreisliga", that is 9th division. That is sunday football, where players sit in the club home after the match, have three or four beers and watch Bundesliga on TV.
When they were promoted to 3rd division, they had an average attendance of about 1,600. These days it´s 27,000. So there must be some 25,000, who never went to football before or followed other clubs. No wonder, no one takes them seriously.
I visited their ground twice (because i like the nearby city of Heidelberg). It is not a football town. No atmosphere. Their away following is lousy. Yes, they have a right to be in the Bundesliga, but i could name easily 20 other clubs from lower leagues which would really add a special atmosphere to the Bundesliga with loyal and large fan groups.
Even Hoffenheim´s idea of creating a team of young regional german players has long gone. Now they are acting on the transfer market like any other team.
There had been clubs with a sugar daddy in the Bundesliga before. Fortuna Köln in the 1970s and Wattenscheid 09 in the 1990s. Their sponsors went bust, now they are in Division 4 and 5. And Uerdingen 05 dropped to Division 6, when the Bayer company left them. And that will happen to Hoffenheim sooner or later without Hopp.
Isn't this the beauty of football though? The dream that a very small club can climb its way through the divisions and reach the very top. It's the dream that the 500 Wigan Athletic fans had back in 1978 when they were a Northern Premier League team.
Whilst Wigan have never attracted 27,000, their percentage increase is if anything larger.
I can't say as I have ever wanted them relegated just because they got lucky with a reasonably wealthy owner and made it all the way to the top flight. I can't say as I have ever wanted them to go down just because their crowds are not as big or fanatical as Leeds United or Sheffield Wednesday.
If they fall back to the lower reaches then so be it, but those 1,500 long standing fans have had a great trip and why should anyone begrudge them that?
There seems to be a little bit of an obsession about doing things "the right way" in Germany, yet Bayern have always wanted to buy all the talent from their rivals, and clubs outside the Bundesliga get forcibly relegated on a very regular basis. The list over the last fifteen years of clubs that have gone into major financial difficulties is extra-ordinarily high.
Football would be a poorer place if the top divisions were only ever taken up by teams with big support and big traditions.
The romance of the little teams upsetting the party is all part of what makes football so uniquely great in world team sport. In this day and age, as we are all aware, financial investment is a must to make things happen, and you cannot expect a club to turn into a vibrant off the field success overnight, especially one from a place as small as Hoffenheim are from.
As for lambasting a club for suddenly attracting 25,000 extra supporters, well Wigan get lambasted because they haven't attracted 25,000 extra supporters. Could they have ever won in this situation? I would suggest you have to pay a great compliment to them in managing to do that, tapping into a Heidelberg area that has no team of it's own.
Ruhr
Well-Known Member
Originally Hopp wanted to merge Hoffenheim with SV Sandhausen (now Bundesliga 2) and Astoria Walldorf, the club from the town of his former company SAP, and name it FC Heidelberg, but the city of Heidelberg was unable to find vacant land for a stadium.
Some 35 minutes away from Hoffenheim, there is the former Bundesliga side SV Waldhof. If he had put his money into this club (which for some time he did), it would be a different story for most of the fans.
And yes, you are right. German fans seem to be very special about tradition and long time loyalty. There is a long list of so called tradition-clubs, that hang around in the divisions 3-6. You have to look back in history of german football to understand it. Before the Bundesliga was introduced in 1963, there were 5 regional leagues. That meant about 100-150 top flight clubs between 1949 and 1963 (and even more if you add the 16 leagues before the war). So we have a large number of clubs in the country with a history of first league football. (I myself support such a club as my "second" favourite, they are playing 5th division with some 700 following them these days, but they would still claim to belong to that elite of tradition clubs).
On the other hand there are the neighbourhood football clubs in divisions 8-11, that is more ore less pub football. That is a different world. Hopp´s "crime" was to bring a club from that world into the world of "traditional" football.
Some 35 minutes away from Hoffenheim, there is the former Bundesliga side SV Waldhof. If he had put his money into this club (which for some time he did), it would be a different story for most of the fans.
And yes, you are right. German fans seem to be very special about tradition and long time loyalty. There is a long list of so called tradition-clubs, that hang around in the divisions 3-6. You have to look back in history of german football to understand it. Before the Bundesliga was introduced in 1963, there were 5 regional leagues. That meant about 100-150 top flight clubs between 1949 and 1963 (and even more if you add the 16 leagues before the war). So we have a large number of clubs in the country with a history of first league football. (I myself support such a club as my "second" favourite, they are playing 5th division with some 700 following them these days, but they would still claim to belong to that elite of tradition clubs).
On the other hand there are the neighbourhood football clubs in divisions 8-11, that is more ore less pub football. That is a different world. Hopp´s "crime" was to bring a club from that world into the world of "traditional" football.
bayern-flo2
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Yes it is! But not when it's planned like an masterplan 'This season 5th league and in 7 years Champions League'DD said:Isn't this the beauty of football though? The dream that a very small club can climb its way through the divisions and reach the very top.
When TSG Hoffenheim entered 2nd League there has been only one club who spended more money on transfers in Germany. Bayern
Some time later they renamed this shithouse to '1899 Hoffenheim' to make it sound old or traditional...
I hope they'll go down this season! No big loss for me
DD said:Isn't this the beauty of football though? The dream that a very small club can climb its way through the divisions and reach the very top.
You mean the same dream that I have of being a millionaire. Or a pop star...
The beauty of football is it when a club with hard training work, exceptional talent in coaching, choice of youngsters, management skills - reaches with its team a lot more than the club usually should. And there is a lot of examples for it.
If somebody makes a lot more out of that he got through exceptional talent and work. It does not matter in which league the club is or if it is a big or a small club. But there has to be some natural growth.
Look e.g. at Freiburg or Mainz. There has been a lot clubs that went up from the lower leagues - and a lot that went down. Düsseldorf e.g. went down to 4th league and made it up again.
It is nothing to admire if just some money get pumped into a club from outside.
If you e.g. look which of the biggest cities in Germany do not have a club in the Bundesliga...
Berlin - 1st in population
Cologne - 4th
Essen - 9th (none in 2nd either)
Dresden - 11th (none in 2nd either)
Leipzig - 12 th (none in 2nd either)
Whereas no. 39 Mainz is in - and no. 67 Fürth... - and maybe next year again no. 81 Kaiserslautern...
The no. 500 in population in Germany is a city named Heppenheim with about 25.000 inhabitants.
Hoffenheim has 3000....
Ruhr
Well-Known Member
Maldeika said:Dresden - 11th (none in 2nd either)
You should have a second thought about Dynamo Dresden
Maldeika said:The no. 500 in population in Germany is a city named Heppenheim with about 25.000 inhabitants.
Hoffenheim has 3000....
Hoffenheim is not a city of its own. It belongs to Sinsheim (population 35,000)
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