Calling all Labourites, why do you Labour

[Rascal]

He got me into City even though I grew up in Liverpool... (Born Manchester though).
He was a character. Not a great father though.

We cant have it all pal i suppose.

 

[Rascal]

It's an interesting question as Labour as a movement, the internationalist belief that unity is strength and protecting and strengthening the interests of all workers and all the classes below the elite within capitalism, is a belief I stick too.

The above belief was formed throughout my life.
As a child my dad worked in a factory and my mam work on admin until I was born where she then changed and worked nights in robies jam factory
Our street was very typical all the neighbours knew each other, at least half worked in the same local factories or shops and so me and my brother were brought up in a strong cummuninty spirited area where most looked out for each other.
My granddad worked where my dad did and me gran worked admin for the police, they lived in bradford in on a council estate where all the locals were as our street community wise and when we stayed round on a weekend the night would be spent in Bradford Labour Club, so I was brought up with a strong sense communal society working together and looking after each other, my family insisted on teaching us to respect everybody and everyone was equal no mater race or sex, I am also baptised a catholic and on my dads side it was more prominent, when younger I was quite into it and read christ story extensively which again steered me into a more socially consious path as the core idea of equality and respect, and rejection of craving money and power made sense to me (Conservative claiming to follow christs teaching is paradoxical) the idea stayed with me when Istopped blieving in an all pwerfull being though.
Anyway alongside that I grew up in the 80s, I watched local communities split up, factories shut down, british assets flogged off, my dad on strike because company cars were valued more than workers when it came to cutting costs, we lived on strike pay and the solidarity of those people fighting for jobs and better conditions shaped my resolve that what we had ruling us was just wrong.
I admit I was also openly subject to negative comments about tories all the time, but I could see it for my own self how our area change, I was also shown what tossers some of the left wing were especially socialist worker
Now not to brag but I was a grade A student, top of the class etc, so I spent most of my spare time reading, books anything from history, not just british but global, economics, socialism, capitalism, geography, theology etc always from different perspectives and that shaped a lot pf the views I have.
I was alway pretty disinterested with money, property and accumilating wealth, so I cannot empithise with consevatisms need to aquire t excessively.
I trained in a profession where workers rights are pretty sketchy and shift/hrs/days worked can be well beyond what the labour movement would like, and those experiences have shaped my beliefs in away where I get a lot of shit off friends who are union members and socialist alike a lot (I have a distain for many uk unions, but not the union movement)
I started traveling the world when I turned 19 and worked seasonally and I admit I have since been influenced by thinking behind budhism and it's social impact on countries it dominates which I belive is somewhat in tune with my socialist beliefs but different influences have altered my socialism many times, I don't believe in unilateral pacifism I don't believe in restricting peoples right to work when they want and how long for as long as they are properly paid for it, I don't believe in monarchy or a ruling class as a necessity to patriotism or love of country, I do believe you should be proud of your nation etc.
I do believe we can have a functioning socialist society and prosper

When it comes to the Labour party though, the first time I was eligable to vote was the 1997 GE and growing up in the 80s I had three reasons I voted labour.
1. It was labour, the party of the workers (working and middle class)
2.John Smith had really imspired me after the Kinnock years of fighting and shithousery that labour were a real viable inspiring future party
3. The torys had been cunts all my life and I needed them gone.

The next election 2001 things were going well, I had my grumbles over some labour policy so voted for them again

The 2005 election I voted green, PFIs and the lack of effort to adress the decimation of northern communities in the 8 years previous had started to piss me off.
some cabinet members were also annoying as fuck, the iraq war never came into my decission, unfortunatley I also realised that partys like the greens will never get a foothold on fptp and with the lack of effort from the media to give them an equal platform

2010 I went back to labour, the financial crash meant I was sure Brown was needed to stay on the tories were just gonna be evil if they got in in my belief.

The last three is similar, we have incompetnece and self interest at the heart of government and Labour is the only viable option, I will admit it doesn't always resonate with my socialism, but it is better than a tory government.

Superb mate.

One thing stands out and this aint a dig

The other thread about why do people Tory has hardly any of the passion shown in some of the posts on this thread.

There may be a reason for that, one i am unaware of or haven't thought of or simply don't understand.

 

[Hart of the Matter]

We cant have it all pal i suppose.

Ironically, reading your posts reminded me of him (in a good way). We so need people like you in this world. You always make me think even if I often disagree.

 

[urban genie]

Superb mate.

One thing stands out and this aint a dig

The other thread about why do people Tory has hardly any of the passion shown in some of the posts on this thread.

There may be a reason for that, one i am unaware of or haven't thought of or simply don't understand.

I would hate to speculate why.

The accusation we are acting superior to others will only be said.

 

[Ban-jani]

I would hate to speculate why.

The accusation we are acting superior to others will only be said.

There’s very specific reasons why conservatism isn’t as passionate as left wing politics and it’s because it’s based on traditional, holding off on changing what we don’t think is broken and conservative values generally aren’t going to display much emotion.

It doesn’t mean inside we don’t hold them dear to us, it means that I’m not going to make a huge banner and storm down the street about keeping the family unit as it is.

You mentioned Conservatism in Britain in another thread quite well, it’s monarchy, it’s the church, it’s family, it’s the countryside, it’s a strong police force upholding only the law and it’s a private life the government doesn’t invade, if you’re obeying the law.

These aren’t exactly principles that are going to see an outpouring of emotion and obvious passion. Most have been the status quo for ages, some now declining but compared with socialism and left wing politics, they’re the opposite of change.

Socialists will walk down the street shouting “we want change”, what are conservatives going to do, protest about not wanting change?

Age needs to be considered too, people tend to become more conservative the older they get and the older you get the less likely you are to show great passion and emotion in the streets about your politics.

On a side note, the odd concept is neither side actually think they are winning and both think they are losing the battle. The left can’t stand society as it is and the right think they are seeing what’s precious in society slipping away.

Thats about as objective as I can get, the last paragraph, I fall in the latter camp.

 

[hilts]

I voted Labour when I was a young adult because I believed I was “working class” and Labour was where the “working class” vote went.

As I got a bit older, after they’d lead us into an illegal war and taken £17k out of all of our pensions, after finding myself not agreeing with their immigration policy or how they were dealing with welfare, I also don’t think they actually do a lot of what they say they will in manifestos; I started to abstain from voting in elections.

The party I thought spoke for me weren’t what I wanted to vote for, and I didn’t want to vote for anyone else.

New Labour had gone so Labour started peaking my interest again, but I found the 2017 Labour manifesto too unbelievable. That list of where money needed spending, and where and how much money was going to be spent, all adding up (to the penny) to exactly to what was needed; was like reading something from a child’s maths book. It was like they thought we were stupid. Then I found their total lack of sense in the 2019 General Election towards Britain leaving the EU made them unelectable, and, from experience, I had suspicions on them not coming through with their pledge of free WiFi for the everyone in country (something I think should happen!). They also aren’t strong enough on Green issues.

In recent years, I’ve found the language used by the Left (not necessarily the Labour Party, more widely the left wing of the nation, but not not the Labour Party) is far too negative. Pointing the finger at other entities for why everything is shit, why our lives are shit, why we’re oppressed, why someone else is oppressed, constantly picking holes in everything the “other side” are doing that contributes to why things are shit, moaning about the moderate right wing and accusing them of being far right, accusing moderate people with moderate views of being racist, accusing people who want controls on immigration as being racist, seeing racism in everything, things like something that was said on the Tory thread that said “working class Tory voters are traitors to the working class”, even moaning that Kier Starmer is a neo-Liberal, telling us that capitalism is evil and holds down the “working class” (when a hell of a lot of “working class” people have never been in a better position because of capitalism), language like “this country is shit”, even country-hating language, even things like on this forum where people were jumping to the defence of the EU over a UK Pharma company and top university because they just can’t be seen backing something British, there’s a lot of country hating language and lack of patriotism, patriotism is even laughed at and conflated (probably purposely) with nationalism... to a lot of people all it is is just moan moan fucking moan, negative negative fucking negative... and a complete lack of progressive aspirational positive realistic language.

Negativity switches people off!

In recent elections I’ve voted Green, mainly because they knocked on my door and spoke to me about my political views, also because I think Green issues are the most important thing going on in the world and the other political parties don’t concentrate on them enough, and also as a bit of a non-Labour vote because I’m a bit lost with them and I think they needed a shake-up and not voting for them would get rid of those I didn’t want in the party. I didn’t even agree with the Green’s stance on Brexit but at least they had one.

But I’ve abstained in the past, and look at how many people don’t vote:

View attachment 9512

That^ was from 2017, but 15.5m registered voters didn’t vote in 2019!

With greater emphasis on progressive aspirational positive realistic language, from people on the left as well as the Labour Party, might get some of these people to the polling stations and might stop people like me not voting for Labour.

I even think that if left wing people just shut the fuck up for a bit, more people might start paying attention to what the Labour Party are actually saying and switch on a bit more with them because it’s not accompanied with a sea of negativity.

But the party itself needs to get in-line with what a lot of traditional voters views are on immigration and welfare. People who live in areas that are just used as immigrant dumping zones are often negatively affected by immigration. Income can also be affected by immigration as a Romanian joiner will give you a quote for much less than your local British joiner might. It’s alright for the metropolitan elite to think immigration positively affects the country, but go to these high immigration areas and speak to the people who’ve lived there for decades (including people who are from previous immigrant populations themselves!) and actually listen to what they’re saying.

Then there’s experience of people who live in traditional Labour areas living next door to piss taking scrounging cunts who’ve been paid benefits and given a free car on disability when there’s fuck all up with them...

I like the new immigration policy we’ve got, and I’d like to see a complete shake-up of the welfare system. Universal Credit is shite, but so is the Labour way of dishing money out willy-nilly. I have a very individual view on welfare and maybe that’s where I’m often a bit lost in politics - welfare should not go to individual households because it’s too easy to take the piss and it doesn’t benefit the community as a whole. Single low paid men, for example, do not see any benefits from any welfare system I’ve ever seen. Welfare should go into communities and welfare money put into better education on shopping and cooking (the biggest area money is wasted in the working class household) and into things like free WiFi (just make sure I trust you’ll come through with it) more social and affordable housing, among many other things, so that households have more free cash to ensure they don’t need benefits.

I’m holding out to see where Kier Starmer takes Labour and what he’s like. And most importantly to me what his views are on Green issues, the nationalisation of public services, immigration, and welfare.

Maybe Kier Starmer is what gets me back on side with Labour?!

Cracking post that mate, you’re far too sane to be posting on here.

 

[Ban-jani]

I am also baptised a catholic and on my dads side it was more prominent, when younger I was quite into it and read christ story extensively which again steered me into a more socially consious path as the core idea of equality and respect, and rejection of craving money and power made sense to me (Conservative claiming to follow christs teaching is paradoxical) the idea stayed with me when Istopped blieving in an all pwerfull being though.

I want to pull you up on this bit and explain why it’s not true.

As a Christian myself, conservative social values are the only political manifestation I can possibly follow from reading the New Testament.

My faith transcends politics on Earth, it’s greater than it by an infinite amount but I still have to apply it.

Liberalism and the social left attacks the importance of marriage between a man and a woman, it attacks “created male and female”, it is for sexual sin and it doesn’t necessarily support the family unit like conservatism does. You could get on to more controversial topics like transgenderism and abortion but I’ll leave it there.

Now economically you have a point when it comes to neoliberalism. But my belief is capitalism is the only system that appears to work and lift people out of poverty, but we need a sprinkle of socialism here and there to help those that need and cannot get themselves out of poverty. The NHS and a welfare system is absolutely needed.

Not all people that support capitalism or are conservatives are obsessed with money, I certainly am not beyond making my new family as comfortable as I can and supporting my wider family that may need it.

It’s no coincidence that once you get to a certain point on the left of the political compass that nobody is a Christian. Bolshevism is the political enemy of Christianity in many ways, as we saw in the USSR and the Labour Party is more aligned to Islam now, which confuses me as Islam is a conservative religion, probably more so, than Christianity but that’s another topic.

 

[urban genie]

I want to pull you up on this bit and explain why it’s not true.

As a Christian myself, conservative social values are the only political manifestation I can possibly follow from reading the New Testament.

My faith transcends politics on Earth, it’s greater than it by an infinite amount but I still have to apply it.

Liberalism and the social left attacks the importance of marriage between a man and a woman, it attacks “created male and female”, it is for sexual sin and it doesn’t necessarily support the family unit like conservatism does. You could get on to more controversial topics like transgenderism and abortion but I’ll leave it there.

Now economically you have a point when it comes to neoliberalism. But my belief is capitalism is the only system that appears to work and lift people out of poverty, but we need a sprinkle of socialism here and there to help those that need and cannot get themselves out of poverty. The NHS and a welfare system is absolutely needed.

Not all people that support capitalism or are conservatives are obsessed with money, I certainly am not beyond making my new family as comfortable as I can and supporting my wider family that may need it.

It’s no coincidence that once you get to a certain point on the left of the political compass that nobody is a Christian. Bolshevism is the political enemy of Christianity in many ways, as we saw in the USSR and the Labour Party is more aligned to Islam now, which confuses me as Islam is a conservative religion, probably more so, than Christianity but that’s another topic.

Religious institutions are opposed by communism, socialism doesn't say you cannot have faith.

All religous institutions have corrupted scripture to their own ends, politically, economically and socially to control the masses is what is actually said by marx, in wages pf labour he accepted spirituality of faith and didn't deny peoples need for it. He also referenced the Acts as early christianity and an example of a socialist construct.

I am talking on a theological level, I rejected my catholicism on the basis the institution that runs and governs it has fundementally corrupted the message of christ for their own ends, all religions do.

The idea that conservatism is the natural part of christianity is a manufactured concept, pushed especially in the US and born again evangelical community.

Someone truly spiritual doesn't need the church telling them what to think only their faith.


The core belief of capitalism is the accumulation of assets and property, for what end will be the remit of the individual, no one mentioned obsession with money but you.

 

[Rascal]

Religious institutions are opposed by communism, socialism doesn't say you cannot have faith.

All religous institutions have corrupted scripture to their own ends, politically, economically and socially to control the masses is what is actually said by marx, in wages pf labour he accepted spirituality of faith and didn't deny peoples need for it. He also referenced the Acts as early christianity and an example of a socialist construct.

I am talking on a theological level, I rejected my catholicism on the basis the institution that runs and governs it has fundementally corrupted the message of christ for their own ends, all religions do.

The idea that conservatism is the natural part of christianity is a manufactured concept, pushed especially in the US and born again evangelical community.

Someone truly spiritual doesn't need the church telling them what to think only their faith.


The core belief of capitalism is the accumulation of assets and property, for what end will be the remit of the individual, no one mentioned obsession with money but you.

I had to expand the post you were quoting as i couldnt see it so i could see why you had posted this as it had no rationale to it without context.

Your answer is a good one, the post you quoted shows profound ignorance and is full of god bothering nonsense.

There is nothing worse in the world that a born again religious nutjob, of course people have every right to believe in sky fairies or satanic pixies if they so wish, but to conflate the teachings of a book wrote second, third or even fourth hand and then doctored by various Papal edicts to enhance the power of the Church over the state with any political standpoint takes a a special kind of magic beans.

Lenin believed that religion was a form of relief allowed by the Capitalist class that covered their exploitation of the working class. Like Marx's "opium for the masses" In effect you give people religion and they will use religion to excuse their own exploitation.

Religion has always supressed the masses, it is why it is tolerated, give the people a book of fairy stories and a building they can worship in and the rest of the week they can exploit their labour for personal gain. Rich men knew this and it is why they built churches.

I am not anti religion BTW, if people feel the need to subject themselves to a sky fairy to feel wholesome then who am I to deny them that succour.

 

[Ban-jani]

Religious institutions are opposed by communism, socialism doesn't say you cannot have faith.

All religous institutions have corrupted scripture to their own ends, politically, economically and socially to control the masses is what is actually said by marx, in wages pf labour he accepted spirituality of faith and didn't deny peoples need for it. He also referenced the Acts as early christianity and an example of a socialist construct.

I am talking on a theological level, I rejected my catholicism on the basis the institution that runs and governs it has fundementally corrupted the message of christ for their own ends, all religions do.

The idea that conservatism is the natural part of christianity is a manufactured concept, pushed especially in the US and born again evangelical community.

Someone truly spiritual doesn't need the church telling them what to think only their faith.


The core belief of capitalism is the accumulation of assets and property, for what end will be the remit of the individual, no one mentioned obsession with money but you.

And you just take whatever Marx said as Gospel instead?

The first bit is true, of course, but in the 21st century, the the majority of socialists aren’t Christian but then again I specifically said when you reach a point on the left the faith disappears entirely, I didn’t say when.

Regarding the bit that Church’s corrupted scripture, it just isn’t true, you’re just repeating something you’ve read without looking into it yourself. The books within the Bible have all been copied and translated from manuscripts that outdate the Church.

One of the weakest arguments is the one about “controlling the masses”. When these scripts were written, the people writing them were the persecuted minority, they weren’t trying to take over the world from a political sense and some gave up positions of power to join the disciples.

I never said conservatism is a natural part of Christianity, I said conservative social values is the only political position I feel I can hold, based on what’s in the New Testament.

Spirituality isn’t the same as Christianity either.

You didn’t use the word obsessed but you did say this:

so I cannot empithise with consevatisms need to aquire it excessively.

It doesn’t need to acquire money excessively, as an ideology.

Conservatives just believe a free market, to some degree, is more likely to result in more people being better off, some will inevitably be very well off as a result but the concern is with the bottom 10% and how well they’re doing. And they’re doing better in the capitalist West than any socialist country.

In fact the reason world poverty rates have shrank so much is because China and India moved into a capitalist economic structure.