Calling all Labourites, why do you Labour

[urban genie]

And you just take whatever Marx said as Gospel instead?

The first bit is true, of course, but in the 21st century, the the majority of socialists aren’t Christian but then again I specifically said when you reach a point on the left the faith disappears entirely, I didn’t say when.

Regarding the bit that Church’s corrupted scripture, it just isn’t true, you’re just repeating something you’ve read without looking into it yourself. The books within the Bible have all been copied and translated from manuscripts that outdate the Church.

One of the weakest arguments is the one about “controlling the masses”. When these scripts were written, the people writing them were the persecuted minority, they weren’t trying to take over the world from a political sense and some gave up positions of power to join the disciples.

I never said conservatism is a natural part of Christianity, I said conservative social values is the only political position I feel I can hold, based on what’s in the New Testament.

Spirituality isn’t the same as Christianity either.

You didn’t use the word obsessed but you did say this:

It doesn’t need to acquire money excessively, as an ideology.

Conservatives just believe a free market, to some degree, is more likely to result in more people being better off, some will inevitably be very well off as a result but the concern is with the bottom 10% and how well they’re doing. And they’re doing better in the capitalist West than any socialist country.

In fact the reason world poverty rates have shrank so much is because China and India moved into a capitalist economic structure.

Not sure how you got I take marx as gospel from that.

I disagree with the churches dictates and doctorines, got fuck all to do with my socialist ideology, but I do see a lot of socialist idealism in the claimed teachings of jesus.

I can seperate church from faith.


You have agreat ability to read an arguement into any comment, aquiring wealth excesively does not equate to obsession,

obsessivenes in an idea or thought that continually preoccupies or intrudes on a person's mind.
Wanting to aquire more welath than you need doesn't mean that at all, well unless you think about doing all day, which I expect most don't as they have other shit to do.

 

[pirate]

I am a labour voter because I believe in social security, free education for all, free healthcare for all and that society needs to protect the vulnerable.

Thats the braod brush answer. happy to answer any specifics

 

[Ban-jani]

Not sure how you got I take marx as gospel from that.

I disagree with the churches dictates and doctorines, got fuck all to do with my socialist ideology, but I do see a lot of socialist idealism in the claimed teachings of jesus.

I can seperate church from faith.


You have agreat ability to read an arguement into any comment, aquiring wealth excesively does not equate to obsession,

obsessivenes in an idea or thought that continually preoccupies or intrudes on a person's mind.
Wanting to aquire more welath than you need doesn't mean that at all, well unless you think about doing all day, which I expect most don't as they have other shit to do.

I was actually trying to have a reasonable conversation with you, not sure why you’re getting all defensive over a mild disagreement.

You said -

All religous institutions have corrupted scripture to their own ends, politically, economically and socially to control the masses is what is actually said by marx

And you agreed with it, I am saying because Marx said it, it doesn’t mean it is true and we know it to be untrue.

I agreed that there is definitely an argument in what you say about socialist behaviours being within the NT, the book of Acts describes the Apostles all putting everything they own into a pot and sharing it out equally.

My argument is there are two sides to the moderate right and conservatism, the social and the economic. Attlee was more socially conservative than the Tory Party post 1990, arguably more so than Thatcher’s day, but he was obviously economically significantly left of centre. I am a conservative more socially than economically, the social aspect is far more important to me.

But the “need” to do something is obsessive, which is what you said. Conservatives don’t “need” to acquire excessive amounts of wealth, I want to progress in my career to support my family and ensure they are comfortable. But if I get to a point where I am earning an amount that I think is excessive, I will give some of it away.

I just don’t believe it’s moral for the state to force people to give a too significant amount away, if they don’t want to, they must have the free will to do so and that is separating church from state. It must be given and not forcibly taken.

It’s one thing voluntary sharing, like they did in the Book of Acts, it’s another the state ceasing money from people to an unreasonable degree.

The capitalism I support, isn’t really based on faith or not, it’s just I personally believe it’s the best system for keeping the most amount of people out of poverty. We just need to implement some social democracy to help those the system leaves behind.

Whereas I believe socialism, as an economic policy, leaves the majority behind.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Because i am not right wing ,i am between lib dems and labour on most things , aside for being tough on crime , handcuffing women in labour to a trolley is why i despise the tories and what they stand for

Being tough on crime isn't necessarily a right wing or Conservative stance. Sure there are far left anarchists that want to abolish prisons, but most people want to see criminals punished and receive a sentence that fits the crime and be rehabilitated if possible or appropriate. Obviously there is some subjectivity within those debates about what is fair and the best approach. Apart from the career criminal, we all want a society where with less crime and where we feel safe on the streets or relaxed that our home won't be burgled etc.

 

[urban genie]

I was actually trying to have a reasonable conversation with you, not sure why you’re getting all defensive over a mild disagreement.

You said -


And you agreed with it, I am saying because Marx said it, it doesn’t mean it is true and we know it to be untrue.

I agreed that there is definitely an argument in what you say about socialist behaviours being within the NT, the book of Acts describes the Apostles all putting everything they own into a pot and sharing it out equally.

My argument is there are two sides to the moderate right and conservatism, the social and the economic. Attlee was more socially conservative than the Tory Party post 1990, arguably more so than Thatcher’s day, but he was obviously economically significantly left of centre. I am a conservative more socially than economically, the social aspect is far more important to me.

But the “need” to do something is obsessive, which is what you said. Conservatives don’t “need” to acquire excessive amounts of wealth, I want to progress in my career to support my family and ensure they are comfortable. But if I get to a point where I am earning an amount that I think is excessive, I will give some of it away.

I just don’t believe it’s moral for the state to force people to give a too significant amount away, if they don’t want to, they must have the free will to do so and that is separating church from state. It must be given and not forcibly taken.

It’s one thing voluntary sharing, like they did in the Book of Acts, it’s another the state ceasing money from people to an unreasonable degree.

The capitalism I support, isn’t really based on faith or not, it’s just I personally believe it’s the best system for keeping the most amount of people out of poverty. We just need to implement some social democracy to help those the system leaves behind.

Whereas I believe socialism, as an economic policy, leaves the majority behind.

Firstly I am not defensive just don't see how you got essesively to equate to obsession.

Bolshevism is the political enemy of Christianity in many ways, as we saw in the USSR

This is my reasons for the Marx comment, christianity or any religion isn't necessaraly the issue as I pointed out, it is the institutions that run them that are.

Also it has been well established the USSR abandoned marxist and trotskyist communism in favour of a more totalitarian warped version, no true left winger tries to defend.

 

[Ban-jani]

Firstly I am not defensive just don't see how you got essesively to equate to obsession.



This is my reasons for the Marx comment, christianity or any religion isn't necessaraly the issue as I pointed out, it is the institutions that run them that are.

Also it has been well established the USSR abandoned marxist and trotskyist communism in favour of a more totalitarian warped version, no true left winger tries to defend.

Well you’re not going to get much of a defence from me on the Catholic Church, I do definitely agree to some extent with you on there being an issue with the institutions. What I disagreed with was the notion of them changing scripture, which isn’t true.

2nd and 3rd century manuscripts still check out when we translate modern day scripture back to them and these outdate the powerful Christian institutions.

But you are right, if the CofE completely collapsed tomorrow, it would be sad for me but wouldn’t affect my personal faith.

Regarding Marx, I know full well that you’re not a communist and don’t support the USSR, there’s only one poster who is on this forum but Marx’s point is still wrong on control.

What do you think on the point about social vs economic conservatism?

 

[urban genie]

Well you’re not going to get much of a defence from me on the Catholic Church, I do definitely agree to some extent with you on there being an issue with the institutions. What I disagreed with was the notion of them changing scripture, which isn’t true.

2nd and 3rd century manuscripts still check out when we translate modern day scripture back to them and these outdate the powerful Christian institutions.

But you are right, if the CofE completely collapsed tomorrow, it would be sad for me but wouldn’t affect my personal faith.

Regarding Marx, I know full well that you’re not a communist and don’t support the USSR, there’s only one poster who is on this forum but Marx’s point is still wrong on control.

What do you think on the point about social vs economic conservatism?

Social conservatism is quite bigoted and closed minded in my opinion.

Economic conservatism too selfsh.

Do you need to be one to be the other?

Not necessararly, you can be economically quite liberal but have social conservative views, you can also fiscaly conservative but more open minded about society though it would be dependant on how it affected you financially.

I will elaborate more probably later but I have several teams meeting to atend rest of the day and cannot skive anymore :-)

 

[Ban-jani]

Social conservatism is quite bigoted and closed minded in my opinion.

Economic conservatism too selfsh.

Do you need to be one to be the other?

Not necessararly, you can be economically quite liberal but have social conservative views, you can also fiscaly conservative but more open minded about society though it would be dependant on how it affected you financially.

I will elaborate more probably later but I have several teams meeting to atend rest of the day and cannot skive anymore :-)

Like any ideology it can be bigoted and close minded, based on its application but it isn’t in its nature.

I look at the left these days and see close mindedness to others and bigotry towards those that disagree with them.

Whilst I am generally more conservative in social values than anything, I do have some left wing views, but I look at the left today and see terrible attitudes to anyone else but those that agree with them.

Regarding economic vs social conservativism, they can be and are separate. You don’t need to be one to be the other. The liberalism is a right wing economic ideology but a left wing social construct in many ways.

Attlee’s Labour were very much left wing economically but very socially conservative compared with today. I think if half the prats on Twitter with him as their avatar, actually googled his government’s policies, they’d probably faint.

I don’t see it as being open minded or close minded, I support social Conservativism because it’s the right thing to do to improve society, imo. We all have etiquette in how to behave and how the government tries to influence society and it’s just an extension of that really.

Being totally open minded and letting anything go is anarchy and even you don’t support that, so you display some level of conservatism, I just think it’s better to display more.

 

[urban genie]

.

I look at the left these days and see close mindedness to others and bigotry towards those that disagree with them.

We used to guillotine people we disagreed with, I would say with have progressed well tbf ;-)

 

[Cheesy]

I am a labour voter because I believe in social security, free education for all, free healthcare for all and that society needs to protect the vulnerable.

Thats the braod brush answer. happy to answer any specifics

Do you not need a strong capitalist economy so that we can raise the taxes for all those 'free' things?