City and Religion

[Gary James]

I keep resisting from saying much on this thread - my views were earlier down the thread and on other similar threads that pop up from time to time. What I will say now though is that the Souvenir Shop was not owned by MCFC and all the club got from merchandising was about £26k a year - a fixed amount. What was sold in the shop was entirely down to its owner and... let's face it... there was an awful lot of tat in there as well as 'quality' football items.

As with many club shops the scarfs, shirts, hats of other teams were sometimes sold, though not in the same quantity as those as smaller clubs (or even WBA - I was amazed when I saw Utd shirts on sale there!).

The half-half bob/ski hats were popular on the Kippax for both Glasgow teams in mid 80s. I'm pretty certain that Celtic related merchandise was on sale in the souvenir shop when Billy McNeill was manager. I'm sure there'll be a list of items sold somewhere, plus adverts in some mags. Whatever was sold in the shop however was entirely down to its owner (not MCFC) and so it's impossible to read anything into what one souvenir shop owner decided should or should not be displayed and sold in 'his' (not MCFC's) shop.

It may have been the official souvenir shop but City had no say over what he sold. And as some of us remember well, Eddie Phillips' business empire did also include selling MUFC material - though I don't think he ever sold MUFC items in his 'City' souvenir shop (but then again someone may know differently?).

EDIT: Actually, I do think that's a Celtic shirt next to the Rangers one. The packaging is clearly similar on the 2 shirts (both UMBRO) and has a similar light reflection making it a bit difficult to see for certain, but the colours are similar shading to Celtic's 1988 centenary shirt <a class="postlink" href="http://www.talkceltic.net/forum/showthread.php?t=122458&page=44" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.talkceltic.net/forum/showthr ... 58&page=44</a> Which would fit. Sponsors' names - not all teams sold shirts with sponsors' names at this time. You bought them separately for some clubs (including City at one point in the 80s), so that doesn't help identify the shirt if a sponsor's name should be visible, unfortunately. Personally, I reckon Eddie Phillips sold both club's merchandise in there and, as I've worked with Janice I know that her approach would probably be to place the two Glasgow shirts side by side. Always organised and logical when she managed the shop for Eddie.

Worth reminding people of what I said earlier in the thread: The great thing about City to me is that the club represents Manchester - a diverse, multicultural and tolerant city now but exactly that when the club achieved its first successes. Manchester City represents all. If we focus on religious divides then we'll be doing a great disservice to those who brought the club its first successes and those that have supported the club since the beginning.

 

[newtownardsblues]

Gary, I take your point about the souvenir shop and its ownership but I am still not convinced that it is a Celtic shirt, it could even be a Northern Ireland shirt, who also wore umbro shirts.

From my own research of City's and Ardwick's earliest directors, I believe that politics rather than religion was a key factor. Many Ardwick and City directors were Conservative councillors or were involved in Conservative politics. Chester's brewery were City's major financial backer and many directors of City were involved in Chester's Brewery. Brewers were nearly all Conservative supporters. City's nickname was of course 'The Brewerymen'. Many of City's directors were also active Freemasons and members of the Church of England. One of the major political issues prior to the First World War was the Irish Question and the Conservatives were the party of the Union.

Football clubs, and breweries, don't really care about the religion of their customers, they are businesses and seek to have as wide a support as possible, but when there are two major clubs in the one city, they are competing for support. It may be that Louis Rocca and Matt Busby delevoped a RC image for United to garner support when they weren't doing that well. Protestants may have supported City in a reaction to United's courting of Catholic support.

 

[newtownardsblues]

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.oldfootballshirts.com/en/teams/n/northern-ireland/old-northern-ireland-football-shirt-s261.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.oldfootballshirts.com/en/tea ... -s261.html</a>

Could this be the green shirt?

 

[hateutd]

Gary, I take your point about the souvenir shop and its ownership but I am still not convinced that it is a Celtic shirt, it could even be a Northern Ireland shirt, who also wore umbro shirts.

From my own research of City's and Ardwick's earliest directors, I believe that politics rather than religion was a key factor. Many Ardwick and City directors were Conservative councillors or were involved in Conservative politics. Chester's brewery were City's major financial backer and many directors of City were involved in Chester's Brewery. Brewers were nearly all Conservative supporters. City's nickname was of course 'The Brewerymen'. Many of City's directors were also active Freemasons and members of the Church of England. One of the major political issues prior to the First World War was the Irish Question and the Conservatives were the party of the Union.

Football clubs, and breweries, don't really care about the religion of their customers, they are businesses and seek to have as wide a support as possible, but when there are two major clubs in the one city, they are competing for support. It may be that Louis Rocca and Matt Busby delevoped a RC image for United to garner support when they weren't doing that well. Protestants may have supported City in a reaction to United's courting of Catholic support.

your post is ok,so lets start again....CITY conservatives,rugs Labour?..... which one is the working class club,and which the upper class?...etc etc etc...... :)

 

[Anonymous]

Gary, I take your point about the souvenir shop and its ownership but I am still not convinced that it is a Celtic shirt, it could even be a Northern Ireland shirt, who also wore umbro shirts.

From my own research of City's and Ardwick's earliest directors, I believe that politics rather than religion was a key factor. Many Ardwick and City directors were Conservative councillors or were involved in Conservative politics. Chester's brewery were City's major financial backer and many directors of City were involved in Chester's Brewery. Brewers were nearly all Conservative supporters. City's nickname was of course 'The Brewerymen'. Many of City's directors were also active Freemasons and members of the Church of England. One of the major political issues prior to the First World War was the Irish Question and the Conservatives were the party of the Union.

Football clubs, and breweries, don't really care about the religion of their customers, they are businesses and seek to have as wide a support as possible, but when there are two major clubs in the one city, they are competing for support. It may be that Louis Rocca and Matt Busby delevoped a RC image for United to garner support when they weren't doing that well. Protestants may have supported City in a reaction to United's courting of Catholic support.

Isn't it strange you're own research has lead you to a conclusion you probably wanted to find? It's what researchers call a "false premise".

As we know the club was formed as St Marks but the majority of research already published suggests this was done on a humanitarian basis - i.e. stop the people in the parish from indulging in violence (look up "scuttling" for instance).

When the club reformed as Ardwick, the majority of the research already undertaken concludes Ardwick were formed along a more commercial basis - Chesters-Thompson being the landlord of the hotel we used in exchange for him having the license to run the bars in the new Hyde Road ground etc. Not really seeing anything religious or political about that.

Clearly, back then, society was very different of course people had religious beliefs and their own politics, however there is nothing to suggest in most of the published research that it had any bearing on City. Again, as has been pointed out already some of the key players in City's early success were Catholic men. However I must stress at this point Catholicism has about as much to with City as Protestantism, Judaism, Islam etc so I am not making any claim along those lines in favour of one side or another or indeed another.

Gary has pointed out the lines on which the Souvenir Shop business was run. Having spent an inordinate amount of time in the Souvenir Shop daydreaming about all the stuff I'd buy if my mum and dad were to win the pools, I can also confirm we sold all kinds of crap - including at various points memorabilia connected to both Glasgow clubs. All of which, as Gary has pointed out, proves nothing about City.

The inference from your posts is that City is somehow drawn up along the same sectarian lines as Glasgow. The fact you do that with such a steadfast insistence, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary, is really quite disturbing.

Judging from your username, I'm guessing your locality possibly shapes your thinking. Now, I'm not here to take away your culture or whatever as it has fuck all to do with me what goes on over there, but by the same token, please don't try and make the leap that City are somehow the club of choice if you happen to be on one side of an irrational divide or another.

 

[newtownardsblues]

What evidence is there that St Mark's were formed to discourage scuttling? This is published in the same accounts which say that St Mark's were formed by Anna Connell which has turned out to be false.

I have never claimed that football in Manchester is the same as football in Glasgow and have said that politics and freemasonry have been the dominant influences within City's boardroom rather than religion.

Chesters Thompson would have used his profile at Ardwick for political ends as did Arthur Balfour.

 

[Mad Eyed Screamer]

What evidence is there that St Mark's were formed to discourage scuttling? This is published in the same accounts which say that St Mark's were formed by Anna Connell which has turned out to be false.

I have never claimed that football in Manchester is the same as football in Glasgow and have said that politics and freemasonry have been the dominant influences within City's boardroom rather than religion.

Chesters Thompson would have used his profile at Ardwick for political ends as did Arthur Balfour.

A lot of churches used football to divert young people away from the evils of the world. It is why the churches formed youth clubs and Baden Powell formed the Scout movement and the Boys Brigade was also formed.
The country had a lot of wars at the time and young people needed to be fit in order to go off and fight.
Churches via football and youth clubs (providing sporting recreation for boys only) taught boys discipline and the word of the lord at the same time as providing opportunities to play sporting games. If you don't turn up for training (or Sunday school) then you don't get a game. Likewise if it was found you had been up to no good during the week, you were out of the team.

Sorry if this sounds like an essay (I actually did my final Uni essay 23 years ago on the beginnings of what we now know as the youth service) and it doesn't specifically answer what St Mark's intentions were, but I doubt very much it was any different.

 

[newtownardsblues]

In his book: 'The Rivals Game, inside the British Derby' Douglas Beattie writes: 'This simple division into Red and Blue is not the only one which has defined the Manchester rivalry. Deep in the background there is the hint of a religious aspect. I'd put it no stronger than that. There have long been perceptions that United have tended to attract more Roman Catholics, without being a Roman Catholic club as such ... However, more than one City supporter told me that they could remember asking aging relatives why the family supported the club and being told it was because they were Protestants. I suspect more than anything else this was a reaction to United's Irish support, which by default made City the team of the Protestant working-classes'. page 88, published 2007.

 

[Mad Eyed Screamer]

In his book: 'The Rivals Game, inside the British Derby' Douglas Beattie writes: 'This simple division into Red and Blue is not the only one which has defined the Manchester rivalry. Deep in the background there is the hint of a religious aspect. I'd put it no stronger than that. There have long been perceptions that United have tended to attract more Roman Catholics, without being a Roman Catholic club as such ... However, more than one City supporter told me that they could remember asking aging relatives why the family supported the club and being told it was because they were Protestants. I suspect more than anything else this was a reaction to United's Irish support, which by default made City the team of the Protestant working-classes'. page 88, published 2007.

That's the answer I got off my granddad when I was aged 7. Didn't even know what a proddy was. (I asked him!)
But my best mate is a Blue and a cafflick. As is my wife. But that was then and this is now.

I think someone said something a few pages ago which struck a cord with me: Spurs are the team that is perceived to be the club that the majority of North London's Jewish community tend to follow - but that doesn't make Spurs a Jewish club. In the same way North London's Greek community are perceived to be Arsenal fans, but Arsenal isn't a Greek club.

 

[Anonymous]

False premise based on/driven by indoctrination; no thanks, I'm out. All the very best to you newtonardsblues.