City & FFP | 2020/21 Accounts released | Revenues of £569.8m, £2.4m profit (p 2395)

[NorthamptonBlue]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Chelsea appear to be unaffected by FFP (relatively) partly because they had the foresight to buy lots of players who they loaned out. They effectively have a bank of decent high value players which they can sell on to raise cash and remain inside FFP requirements.

 

[andyhinch]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Unfortunately, you've both got the wrong end of the stick. I wasn't advocating buying any of those players to stop our rivals getting them. That would be idiotic. The only one I would have been interested in, in terms of augmenting what we already have, was Sanchez. When I said what we should be concerned about is how Fabregas et al would strengthen our rivals, I meant it from the point of view that they would all be serious challengers to us next season because of those purchases. That is all

I think you're absolutely right. I was gutted today to see Sanchez go to the Arse, and I fully expect to see the rags spend at least another £60 or £70m this summer. With our rivals having all strengthened significantly, the fight for a CL place next season will be desperate, and if we cop for the kind of injury problems we got last year we may struggle to make the cut. Those that say FFP won't affect us are fantasists. It already is......and significantly. If we can finish top 4 next season and break even, then all bets are off, but if we don't then we could be in more trouble than we think in the long term.

So, just the one from yourself (who would Sanchez replace BTW?) and George is unusually quiet.

So surely we've not been 'significantly' hamstrung then and we've quietly strengthened where we needed it (once the CB is sorted). I for one think our starting 11 is as strong or stronger than anyone else in the PL with top drawer backup regardless of any further signings from our rivals (short of the rags just buying Real Madrid's entire team).

I refer you back to my original post again, where I stated clearly, Jovetic. Nothing against the lad, I just think a Dzeko, Beast, Kun, Sanchez quartet, would have provided a better balance than Dzeko, Beast, Kun and Jo Jo. Take Aguero out of the equation and there's very little in the way of pace up top, and given his injury record last season, Sanchez would have been prudent like for like (ish) cover, plus he can do a turn out wide. Counterattacking is a CL staple, and I think we need to improve this aspect of our game.
As to your second point, we do indeed have a good looking squad, but there's no way you're gonna convince me that the acquisitions of Fernando and Sagna, will benefit us more than say Fabregas and Costa will benefit Chelsea. Like I said, the battle for a top 4 spot next season will be the most brutal yet, and with an ageing squad, we need the financial boost of continuous qualification to negate the impact of FFP more than any of our rivals

Ageing squad? What's the average age.

 

[Centurions]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Unfortunately, you've both got the wrong end of the stick. I wasn't advocating buying any of those players to stop our rivals getting them. That would be idiotic. The only one I would have been interested in, in terms of augmenting what we already have, was Sanchez. When I said what we should be concerned about is how Fabregas et al would strengthen our rivals, I meant it from the point of view that they would all be serious challengers to us next season because of those purchases. That is all

I think you're absolutely right. I was gutted today to see Sanchez go to the Arse, and I fully expect to see the rags spend at least another £60 or £70m this summer. With our rivals having all strengthened significantly, the fight for a CL place next season will be desperate, and if we cop for the kind of injury problems we got last year we may struggle to make the cut. Those that say FFP won't affect us are fantasists. It already is......and significantly. If we can finish top 4 next season and break even, then all bets are off, but if we don't then we could be in more trouble than we think in the long term.

So, just the one from yourself (who would Sanchez replace BTW?) and George is unusually quiet.

So surely we've not been 'significantly' hamstrung then and we've quietly strengthened where we needed it (once the CB is sorted). I for one think our starting 11 is as strong or stronger than anyone else in the PL with top drawer backup regardless of any further signings from our rivals (short of the rags just buying Real Madrid's entire team).

I refer you back to my original post again, where I stated clearly, Jovetic. Nothing against the lad, I just think a Dzeko, Beast, Kun, Sanchez quartet, would have provided a better balance than Dzeko, Beast, Kun and Jo Jo. Take Aguero out of the equation and there's very little in the way of pace up top, and given his injury record last season, Sanchez would have been prudent like for like (ish) cover, plus he can do a turn out wide. Counterattacking is a CL staple, and I think we need to improve this aspect of our game.
As to your second point, we do indeed have a good looking squad, but there's no way you're gonna convince me that the acquisitions of Fernando and Sagna, will benefit us more than say Fabregas and Costa will benefit Chelsea. Like I said, the battle for a top 4 spot next season will be the most brutal yet, and with an ageing squad, we need the financial boost of continuous qualification to negate the impact of FFP more than any of our rivals

Apologies, I missed the Jovetic reference.

 

[Centurions]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Agree on selling players pretty cheap, I think usually buying teams are the ones that are very happy with the deals they got. Milan with NDJ and Juve with Tevez certainly.

Thats a valid point that we would only get real great fees for players that are crucial in our teams like Yaya, Kompany, Agüero etc, but some rival teams can get very nice fees even for players from their bench or some deadwoods too.

Will never forget that Caicedo deal few years ago we did put in an option in his Levante loan deal that they they buy him for 1m € after the season.
They did buy him, 2 weeks later sold him to a Russian club for 10m€.

No way Caicedo was that shit that we needed to put than optional price in his deal. He had no future at City OK, but still 1m€? Any League One striker would cost more probably.

Not mentioning how hard it was to get rid of the likes of RSC, Bridge, Adebayor, we didnt even get a fee for them or the fee we got for Adebayor probably went to pay his wages when he didnt even play for us anymore.

I simply cant believe with better connections, more qualified people doing these deals for us and not Cook or Marwood couldnt have get better deals for us and probably 10-20-30m extra income from selling players was thrown out on the window if we would add all these up.

Certainly very big wages cost us in this sense as if players become deadwood but is on high wage its very hard to move them out for a good fee as its likely they dont get similar wage at new club, so they dont want to move or request pay off or buyer team can offer similar wage only if buying price lot lower...

Sometimes I wonder tho if after the takeover we hire Txiki/Soriano or similar big names in the industry around 2008/2009 how much better shape we would be in now.
I think we would be lot further...

Dont know that rumour is true or not that when Txiki arrived and looked at the squad and the costs/wages of it he was shocked...
But can easily imagine its true.

But still under Txiki-era not very delighted with the fee we got for Balo/Tevez. Yeah they were problematic strikers on big wages, but a combined fee of 32m (?) wouldnt call it fantastic deal from our side. Especially as Milan pay that maybe still in installments in 2020.:D

Did we not get our money back on Balotelli? Which given amortisation would put us in credit?

 

[bluechampion7891]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

I was going to reply to 'Exeter Blue I am here' but you covered it all here.
+1

Unfortunately, you've both got the wrong end of the stick. I wasn't advocating buying any of those players to stop our rivals getting them. That would be idiotic. The only one I would have been interested in, in terms of augmenting what we already have, was Sanchez. When I said what we should be concerned about is how Fabregas et al would strengthen our rivals, I meant it from the point of view that they would all be serious challengers to us next season because of those purchases. That is all

We'll all see the effectiveness of UEFA's attack at the end of the season for sure, probably before the turn of the year actually. I sincerely hope you and the others who take your admirably optimistic view are right and we've negotiated ourselves out of danger. It seems however that on the current evidence we are in grave danger of being overtaken by a number of our rivals.

I think you're absolutely right. I was gutted today to see Sanchez go to the Arse, and I fully expect to see the rags spend at least another £60 or £70m this summer. With our rivals having all strengthened significantly, the fight for a CL place next season will be desperate, and if we cop for the kind of injury problems we got last year we may struggle to make the cut. Those that say FFP won't affect us are fantasists. It already is......and significantly. If we can finish top 4 next season and break even, then all bets are off, but if we don't then we could be in more trouble than we think in the long term.

So, just the one from yourself (who would Sanchez replace BTW?) and George is unusually quiet.

So surely we've not been 'significantly' hamstrung then and we've quietly strengthened where we needed it (once the CB is sorted). I for one think our starting 11 is as strong or stronger than anyone else in the PL with top drawer backup regardless of any further signings from our rivals (short of the rags just buying Real Madrid's entire team).

I am personally at a split as to how FFP has affected us with respect to our rivals. Sometimes I think we will be in trouble looking at Toure's outbursts and flashy signing for our rivals. At other times I think we will be OK. I try to look at it objectively with various factors that may affect us both positively or negatively:

1. Injuries
Last year we had Sergio out for 15 PL games I think, Jovetic for at least 2/3rd of the season. Silva missed the early season games. Fernandinho missed our vital clash v Chelsea. Kompany was also missing for a few of our early season losses. If we don't suffer such an injury crises, we should be remarkably better. Also, looking at Chelsea and Liverpool, they really didn't have injuries to key players simultaneously for a sustained period. That might change.

Counterpoint: We may suffer injuries, our rivals may not.

So its basically a lot of luck. On balance, I think even were we to suffer, it would at most derail our title challenge, but we should make top 3.

2. Squad Strengthening
Our squad had an average DM, no top class CB to partner Kompany, no competition for Hart, and no rotation for Zaba. We have addressed (about to address) those. So as a squad we are much balanced. Our attacking option last year were marred by injuries, hopefully without injuries they would prove far more effective and equal a "marquee" attacking signing in affect.

Counterpoint: Our rivals have strengthened to an extent more than the gap between us in spite of our new signings. Maybe, maybe not. We will only know when the season begins. What worries me though is that players like Sanchez, Di Maria, Vidal and Pogba might (have) move(d) this summer so even if we don't have sanctions next season we might not have the requisite quality player available.

3. Managers
Pellegrini knows the league now and won't underestimate teams/suffer wobbles. Also, our key players are now familiar with the new system so new signings will take less time to adapt. For me that's like an extra 4-6 points.

Counterpoint: LVG is good. At the very least he is no Moyes. He may or may not take time adapting to the PL and his new players but I expect him to get around 20-25% more from his players than Moyes. No Europe will help them a lot. Mourinho will have the squad he wants, his old players will also know his system, he is better tactically. On balance this might compensate for any perceived weakness in his squad. Wenger is Wenger inspite of new (imminent) signings. But expect a much smaller gap between us and them.

4. Fixtures
Easy run in, tough start. I expect us to be much better against relegation fodder and bottom teams. We dropped 5 points against Sunderland, 3 against Cardiff and Villa, 2 against Southamption and Stoke (I might have missed some). If we can get those points, that's an extra 15 points.

Counterpoint: I don't expect 6 points against Spurs, Pocchetino is much better, their flops/new signings last year should have settled. I'd take 3 of them. I think we would be better against Liverpool, but lets put 3 down for the moment. Chelsea I honestly don't know, 2 draws would be good I think so 2 points. Same with Arsenal I don't expect us to win 6-3 or draw 1-1, so I'd take 3. With United I still expect to win at home, so I'll put that down as 4. Everton is an interesting case as they might not have their loanees but they would have Barry, I'll put us down to take 4 points. So that's about 6 points less than last season.

On balance (on paper IMO) we might get an extra 9 points to take us to 95. Usually would be enough to easily win the league (it is the PL points record). 85 should be more than enough for top 3 if we do horribly wrong in any case. Bottom line, we can't affect our rivals performances in games that don't involve us. Arsenal e.g last season was probably better against the bottom 2/3rd of the table than us (I haven't checked, may be wrong). What we can do is match our rivals when we play them and win all our other games. Don't lose away, try to win at home.

5. Miscellaneous factors
If Yaya stays, will he be arsed? If he goes, we won't definitely get an adequate replacement. What about Nasri, will he return to his complacent self or perform like he did for the majority if last season?

SO basically its a fine balancing act. In fact, writing it down like that makes me feel much confident :)

 

[bluechampion7891]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Agree on selling players pretty cheap, I think usually buying teams are the ones that are very happy with the deals they got. Milan with NDJ and Juve with Tevez certainly.

Thats a valid point that we would only get real great fees for players that are crucial in our teams like Yaya, Kompany, Agüero etc, but some rival teams can get very nice fees even for players from their bench or some deadwoods too.

Will never forget that Caicedo deal few years ago we did put in an option in his Levante loan deal that they they buy him for 1m € after the season.
They did buy him, 2 weeks later sold him to a Russian club for 10m€.

No way Caicedo was that shit that we needed to put than optional price in his deal. He had no future at City OK, but still 1m€? Any League One striker would cost more probably.

Not mentioning how hard it was to get rid of the likes of RSC, Bridge, Adebayor, we didnt even get a fee for them or the fee we got for Adebayor probably went to pay his wages when he didnt even play for us anymore.

I simply cant believe with better connections, more qualified people doing these deals for us and not Cook or Marwood couldnt have get better deals for us and probably 10-20-30m extra income from selling players was thrown out on the window if we would add all these up.

Certainly very big wages cost us in this sense as if players become deadwood but is on high wage its very hard to move them out for a good fee as its likely they dont get similar wage at new club, so they dont want to move or request pay off or buyer team can offer similar wage only if buying price lot lower...

Sometimes I wonder tho if after the takeover we hire Txiki/Soriano or similar big names in the industry around 2008/2009 how much better shape we would be in now.
I think we would be lot further...

Dont know that rumour is true or not that when Txiki arrived and looked at the squad and the costs/wages of it he was shocked...
But can easily imagine its true.

But still under Txiki-era not very delighted with the fee we got for Balo/Tevez. Yeah they were problematic strikers on big wages, but a combined fee of 32m (?) wouldnt call it fantastic deal from our side. Especially as Milan pay that maybe still in installments in 2020.:D

Did we not get our money back on Balotelli? Which given amortisation would put us in credit?

Balotelli scored 1 league goal for us that season if i remember correctly. We got a good fee for him I think. Although had we offered him after the Euros, we would've got 30-35m (and Hazard too probably). Tevez I agree we should have got a lot more, but perhaps the saving in wages was far more important to us that his fee. I think it amounts to 10m saved in wages that year.

 

[cibaman]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Ideally we should give Aguero, Kompany, Silva and Zabaleta a very gentle introduction into the new season. Let Aguero, Silva and Kompany fully recover from the injuries they carried into the WC. Give Zaba a much deserved rest.

The question is whether the squad is strong enough to cope without them. Clearly we need the new CB, although they often take time to settle in. We need the players that didn't play in the WC to step up, particularly Nasri. We need Negredo to get back to his 2013 form.

However, for me the key issue is whether Pellegrini has sufficient faith in Jovetic to make him a regular starter at the beginning of the season. He cant just be the 4th striker.

 

[bluechampion7891]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Ideally we should give Aguero, Kompany, Silva and Zabaleta a very gentle introduction into the new season. Let Aguero, Silva and Kompany fully recover from the injuries they carried into the WC. Give Zaba a much deserved rest.

The question is whether the squad is strong enough to cope without them. Clearly we need the new CB, although they often take time to settle in. We need the players that didn't play in the WC to step up, particularly Nasri. We need Negredo to get back to his 2013 form.

However, for me the key issue is whether Pellegrini has sufficient faith in Jovetic to make him a regular starter at the beginning of the season. He cant just be the 4th striker.

I agree. Also given the injury prone nature of both Jovetic and Aguero, I think they should be starters. We don't want to sub one of them on only to sub them off.

I think our starting line up for early games would be
------------------Hart-----------
Sagna---Komp---Dem/new CB..............Kolarov
.................Fernando.....Toure/Fernandinho.........
Navas/Milner..........Jovetic................Nasri
....................................Dzeko.....................................

 

[Wio Gumflapdinand]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Now hopefully UEFArce and the footballing world are satisfied as Barca and Real now own the top five players in world football. Reus and Aguero next over there and then we can all look forward to real vs Barca every year in the chumps league final.

 

[sam-caddick]

Re: City & FFP (continued)

Now hopefully UEFArce and the footballing world are satisfied as Barca and Real now own the top five players in world football. Reus and Aguero next over there and then we can all look forward to real vs Barca every year in the chumps league final.

Tell that to Atletico Madrid and Borussia Dortmund.

The best players don't make the best teams.