City & FFP | 2020/21 Accounts released | Revenues of £569.8m, £2.4m profit (p 2395)

[SilverFox2]

Italian football in general. It has a lot of social problems involving the ownership of many of their stadiums, the ticket prices/general relationship with fans and specifically the revenue split. Italian clubs are heavily dependent on TV revenue and their commercial revenues are behind many of the top clubs. Unfortunately they are also trying to compete on the same revenue landscape as the top clubs, so they have all of the costs with none of the income.

The top teams over there have lost money for many years but their owners have generally propped them up. As FFP came in and it disallowed this type of investment, it banned this practice but the problem is really that they needed propping up in the first place rather than that they were propped up.

This isn't an Italian only problem and if you ignore England, France, Spain and Germany for a minute then this exact problem is replicated in almost every league across the continent. There was a great report put out by UEFA in 2008 (before FFP was decided) showing the extent of the problem. There is a 99% competitive advantage between the top 10 spending clubs in a league and the next 10.

FFP was bastardised and warped into a perverted mess by agendas and politiking in UEFA but the root issue that clubs were both struggling to keep themselves afloat and the competitive advantage given to the biggest spending clubs really is a concerning issue

Thanks again D.

So UEFA were fully aware of the problem and its potential extent yet they deliberately skewed the rules to exaggerate its effect on new money clubs (say City and PSG) knowing full well this made others more vulnerable ?

If so, are they likely to be sympathetic to the problems of Italy generally given their indifference to other European Leagues ?

Will they be glad to rid themselves of the Italian problems you describe or will they be frightened that they will find a way to form a breakaway football organisation that may threaten their overall control of European football ?
I suppose it depends on how greedy the current very profitable clubs are.

As we know the attack on owner investment whilst choosing to ignore debt (in fact FFP, contrary to the general line tripped out, encourages clubs to add debt rather than get owners to write it off) was more political than financial.

What amazes me is how many supposedly clever men at top clubs coudnt see what many of us fans could and now they are stating to bleat about it.

As for Italian footy Dam' is right in what he says but its also a case of FFP coming along when the owners over there desperately wanted to stop spending on players as their stadiums were crumbling (post Italia 90 investments.) and local and national governments werent going to pay that bill again.

Lets also not forget that the noise made about 'state support' of footy clubs meant that it would be against FFP if stadiums were built/repaired/upgraded by local or national governments in the way that Spanish and Italian clubs have historically done.

Many thanks Fbloke for further adding to my knowledge, I feel little embarrassed that I have to rely on informed posts from others to glean info on this interesting subject.

 

[fbloke]

Thanks again D.

So UEFA were fully aware of the problem and its potential extent yet they deliberately skewed the rules to exaggerate its effect on new money clubs (say City and PSG) knowing full well this made others more vulnerable ?

If so, are they likely to be sympathetic to the problems of Italy generally given their indifference to other European Leagues ?

Will they be glad to rid themselves of the Italian problems you describe or will they be frightened that they will find a way to form a breakaway football organisation that may threaten their overall control of European football ?
I suppose it depends on how greedy the current very profitable clubs are.

As we know the attack on owner investment whilst choosing to ignore debt (in fact FFP, contrary to the general line tripped out, encourages clubs to add debt rather than get owners to write it off) was more political than financial.

What amazes me is how many supposedly clever men at top clubs coudnt see what many of us fans could and now they are stating to bleat about it.

As for Italian footy Dam' is right in what he says but its also a case of FFP coming along when the owners over there desperately wanted to stop spending on players as their stadiums were crumbling (post Italia 90 investments.) and local and national governments werent going to pay that bill again.

Lets also not forget that the noise made about 'state support' of footy clubs meant that it would be against FFP if stadiums were built/repaired/upgraded by local or national governments in the way that Spanish and Italian clubs have historically done.

Many thanks Fbloke for further adding to my knowledge, I feel little embarrassed that I have to rely on informed posts from others to glean info on this interesting subject.

I think some of us have more time on our hands than other ;-)

 

[Damocles]

Platini and UEFA carrot and stick.

Hull City hit by £145k UEFA fine for breaking Financial Fair Play rules

Fair Play (FFP) rules, UEFA have confirmed. The Tigers reached a settlement agreement with the European game’s governing body after failing to comply with “break-even” regulations. City have also been given until December 31, 2015 to show full compliance or risk a further 400,000 Euro (£290,000) punishment.<a class="postlink" href="http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/Hull-...ail/story.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/Hull-...ail/story.html</a>

There you have it. Win a place in their invite only competition and your welcome is an instant fine and another possible fine if you don't comply with their FFP rules. And where does that fine go? It goes to the richest clubs who have passed FFP, even though they carry debt worth 100's millions.

#theUEFAfootballfamily

Wow, a £145,000 and £290,000 suspended fine.

That seems perfectly fair and consistent with our £20,000,000 now and £30,000,000 suspended fine. I'm sure a fine of 114 times what Hull got was perfectly in line with regulations.

The more this goes on the more corrupt you can see it becoming. We'll bury these fuckers in court one day

 

[jrb]

Apparently the debts are sustainable, so that makes everything OK. But it does help that Real Madrid are the biggest and most successful football club in Europe. A club Platini and UEFA dare not upset, which could jeopardise the CL. You can add United and Barcelona to that list.

Real Madrid's debt has grown to €602 million, according to figures released to club members.

[bigimg]http://images.performgroup.com/di/library/goal_uk/4e/64/florentino-perez-real-madrid_1xg4ynk6i8kxc15c6yfydvcqp2.jpg?t=-1506764683&w=620&h=430[/bigimg]

The amount that the European champions owe to banks, creditors the Spanish government and others has grown 11.3 per cent, from €541m, in the past year.
http://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spain/2014/09/20/5119040/real-madrid-over-600-million-in-debt

 

[squirtyflower]

Apparently the debts are sustainable, so that makes everything OK. But it does help that Real Madrid are the biggest and most successful football club in Europe. A club Platini and UEFA dare not upset, which could jeopardise the CL. You can add United and Barcelona to that list.

Real Madrid's debt has grown to €602 million, according to figures released to club members.

[bigimg]http://images.performgroup.com/di/library/goal_uk/4e/64/florentino-perez-real-madrid_1xg4ynk6i8kxc15c6yfydvcqp2.jpg?t=-1506764683&w=620&h=430[/bigimg]

The amount that the European champions owe to banks, creditors the Spanish government and others has grown 11.3 per cent, from €541m, in the past year.
http://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spain/2014/09/20/5119040/real-madrid-over-600-million-in-debt

Clearly it's not sustainable if it's growing faster than interest rates?

 

[richards30]

Apparently the debts are sustainable, so that makes everything OK. But it does help that Real Madrid are the biggest and most successful football club in Europe. A club Platini and UEFA dare not upset, which could jeopardise the CL. You can add United and Barcelona to that list.

Real Madrid's debt has grown to €602 million, according to figures released to club members.

[bigimg]http://images.performgroup.com/di/library/goal_uk/4e/64/florentino-perez-real-madrid_1xg4ynk6i8kxc15c6yfydvcqp2.jpg?t=-1506764683&w=620&h=430[/bigimg]

The amount that the European champions owe to banks, creditors the Spanish government and others has grown 11.3 per cent, from €541m, in the past year.
http://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spain/2014/09/20/5119040/real-madrid-over-600-million-in-debt

Absolutely ridiculous that they get away with that! Yet we have no debt and still get fined?? Weren't real also under investigation for the money given to them by the Spanish government?

 

[Bill]

lol ffp is debt related . ok platini we believe you love.

 

[Bodicoteblue]

Apparently the debts are sustainable, so that makes everything OK. But it does help that Real Madrid are the biggest and most successful football club in Europe. A club Platini and UEFA dare not upset, which could jeopardise the CL. You can add United and Barcelona to that list.

Real Madrid's debt has grown to €602 million, according to figures released to club members.

[bigimg]http://images.performgroup.com/di/library/goal_uk/4e/64/florentino-perez-real-madrid_1xg4ynk6i8kxc15c6yfydvcqp2.jpg?t=-1506764683&w=620&h=430[/bigimg]

The amount that the European champions owe to banks, creditors the Spanish government and others has grown 11.3 per cent, from €541m, in the past year.
http://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spain/2014/09/20/5119040/real-madrid-over-600-million-in-debt

Clearly it's not sustainable if it's growing faster than interest rates?

It's growing twice as fast as their income , and yet it's sustainable?
And they still carry on spending hundreds of millions on players .
It really is no surprise that the crooks at uefa switched their focus from debt to spending ,as that was the only way they could get at us, without hurting the old boys clubs.
Hopefully the whole edifice is going to collapse under the weight of its debt and fall squarely on platinis head.

 

[squirtyflower]

Apparently the debts are sustainable, so that makes everything OK. But it does help that Real Madrid are the biggest and most successful football club in Europe. A club Platini and UEFA dare not upset, which could jeopardise the CL. You can add United and Barcelona to that list.

Clearly it's not sustainable if it's growing faster than interest rates?

It's growing twice as fast as their income , and yet it's sustainable?
And they still carry on spending hundreds of millions on players .
It really is no surprise that the crooks at uefa switched their focus from debt to spending ,as that was the only way they could get at us, without hurting the old boys clubs.
Hopefully the whole edifice is going to collapse under the weight of its debt and fall squarely on platinis head.

It's disgusting that they are allowed to spend millions on players when they owe the government so much.
Could you see HMRC leering us off with our VAT to help us buy Pogba?

 

[GaudinoMotors]

Add to this the regional hatred of Madrid throughout Spain and them being propped up by the Government is even more inflammatory.
UEFA treat the old boys like a shop window where us unworthy clubs are supposed to peer in like urchins outside Hamleys.

 

[squirtyflower]

Add to this the regional hatred of Madrid throughout Spain and them being propped up by the Government is even more inflammatory.
UEFA treat the old boys like a shop window where us unworthy clubs are supposed to peer in like urchins outside Hamleys.

You know what happened to Hamleys don't you?

 

[SilverFox2]

Clearly it's not sustainable if it's growing faster than interest rates?

It's growing twice as fast as their income , and yet it's sustainable?
And they still carry on spending hundreds of millions on players .
It really is no surprise that the crooks at uefa switched their focus from debt to spending ,as that was the only way they could get at us, without hurting the old boys clubs.
Hopefully the whole edifice is going to collapse under the weight of its debt and fall squarely on platinis head.

It's disgusting that they are allowed to spend millions on players when they owe the government so much.
Could you see HMRC leering us off with our VAT to help us buy Pogba?

Not certain of my facts here but is our owner a supporter of Real Madrid ?

 

[squirtyflower]

It's growing twice as fast as their income , and yet it's sustainable?
And they still carry on spending hundreds of millions on players .
It really is no surprise that the crooks at uefa switched their focus from debt to spending ,as that was the only way they could get at us, without hurting the old boys clubs.
Hopefully the whole edifice is going to collapse under the weight of its debt and fall squarely on platinis head.

It's disgusting that they are allowed to spend millions on players when they owe the government so much.
Could you see HMRC leering us off with our VAT to help us buy Pogba?

Not certain of my facts here but is our owner a supporter of Real Madrid ?

Sorry mate but I don't have him on speed dial to be able to check it out for you

Ps what's that got to do with Madrid owing money to the government whilst paying extorniate prices for players?

 

[whp.blue]

It's disgusting that they are allowed to spend millions on players when they owe the government so much.
Could you see HMRC leering us off with our VAT to help us buy Pogba?

Not certain of my facts here but is our owner a supporter of Real Madrid ?

Sorry mate but I don't have him on speed dial to be able to check it out for you

Ps what's that got to do with Madrid owing money to the government whilst paying extorniate prices for players?

If true he may have a quick look down the back of the Sofa

 

[jrb]

I always love going back to this, just to remind me what c***'s United, Gill, Arsenal & Co have been. And their true intentions behind FFP within UEFA and the PL.

And if wasn't true, don't you think United, Gill &Co wouldn't have taken Samuel and the Mail through the courts. Their silence is deafening.

And then the game changed.

On Arsenal headed notepaper, a letter was handed out, signed by four clubs — Manchester United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Tottenham Hotspur — stating the existing FFP proposals did not go far enough and that greater limitations should be placed on owner investment.

David Gill, the chief executive of Manchester United, rose to speak. He questioned why the Premier League had to serve the needs of oligarchs and oil-rich Sheiks. Manchester United were focused on the health of the competition, he said — at this point it would have taken a heart of stone not to laugh — and he would go a stage further. The league should consider implementing UEFA financial fair play proposals to the letter, even getting UEFA in to regulate and ensure their strict application.

[bigimg]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/13/article-2261817-16EA8043000005DC-888_634x868.jpg[/bigimg]

[bigimg]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/14/article-2261817-16E9561C000005DC-915_634x286.jpg[/bigimg]


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...mier-League--Martin-Samuel.html#ixzz3YXZhKCem
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

 

[SilverFox2]

It's disgusting that they are allowed to spend millions on players when they owe the government so much.
Could you see HMRC leering us off with our VAT to help us buy Pogba?

Not certain of my facts here but is our owner a supporter of Real Madrid ?

Sorry mate but I don't have him on speed dial to be able to check it out for you

Ps what's that got to do with Madrid owing money to the government whilst paying extorniate prices for players?

I was thinking our owner may have one of those offset deals with the Spanish Government where he uses his deposit money (for European loan payback) against interest money for his favourite team (Real Madrid).

To be serious though, our owner may, via his Real Madrid connections, be a threat to UEFA if they take any more liberties with MCFC.

 

[jrb]

How State aid rules are being applied to European football: Part 1 – examples of the Commission’s approach

By Richard Craven published on 07 July 2014

European Commission Flags Print

In this three part series, Richard Craven explores the current status of State aid in European football. In Part 1, he examines the rules governing State aid under the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, and examines relevant investigations that have recently been undertaken by the European Commission (the “Commission”) which illustrate how the rules are being applied to football.

In part 2, he considers the availability of exemptions, and, in addition, discusses the potential consequences of the football investigation, and in part 3 he looks specifically at State aid for the construction/renovation of football stadiums in France ahead of the UEFA Euro 2016 Championships.

Introduction <a class="postlink" href="http://www.lawinsport.com/articles/tax-law/item/how-state-aid-rules-are-being-applied-to-european-football-part-1-examples-of-the-commission-s-approach" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.lawinsport.com/articles/tax- ... s-approach</a>

The EC competition office confirmed The Independent's report that the Spanish club is subject to an investigation into a property deal with Madrid city council in which a piece of land acquired by the club for €421,000 was subsequently sold back to the council for €22.7m.

Instead of the payment, Real received land around the Bernabeu on which they plan to build a hotel and shopping mall complex as well as putting a roof on the stadium with lucrative naming rights.


The Independent has also learned that the EC is yet to reach a decision on another case involving the European Ombudsman. It relates to Spanish government legislation in June 1992 that all football clubs must become PLCs – with the exception of Real Madrid, Barcelona, Osasuna and Athletic Bilbao.

The exemption of these four clubs has conferred on them corporation tax advantages, and offered a degree of asset protection rights if the clubs seek to assert them. <a class="postlink" href="http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/european/european-commission-under-fire-over-22m-real-madrid-illegal-state-aid-deal-8559168.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foot ... 59168.html</a>

Court rules against Real Madrid’s stadium expansion plans

Decision puts project to add shopping mall and hotel to Santiago Bernabéu on hold

The EC is also reportedly looking into whether state aid is being used to help remodel the Bernabéu

<a class="postlink" href="http://elpais.com/m/elpais/2015/02/11/inenglish/1423652426_421598.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://elpais.com/m/elpais/2015/02/11/i ... 21598.html</a>

 

[Del_Bosque]

Bayern resigned with Adidas, getting €60m a year now

Our deal with Nike at the minute is pathetic

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I always love going back to this, just to remind me what c***'s United, Gill, Arsenal & Co have been. And their true intentions behind FFP within UEFA and the PL.

And if wasn't true, don't you think United, Gill &Co wouldn't have taken Samuel and the Mail through the courts. Their silence is deafening.

And then the game changed.

On Arsenal headed notepaper, a letter was handed out, signed by four clubs — Manchester United, Arsenal, Liverpool and Tottenham Hotspur — stating the existing FFP proposals did not go far enough and that greater limitations should be placed on owner investment.

David Gill, the chief executive of Manchester United, rose to speak. He questioned why the Premier League had to serve the needs of oligarchs and oil-rich Sheiks. Manchester United were focused on the health of the competition, he said — at this point it would have taken a heart of stone not to laugh — and he would go a stage further. The league should consider implementing UEFA financial fair play proposals to the letter, even getting UEFA in to regulate and ensure their strict application.

[bigimg]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/13/article-2261817-16EA8043000005DC-888_634x868.jpg[/bigimg]

[bigimg]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2013/01/14/article-2261817-16E9561C000005DC-915_634x286.jpg[/bigimg]


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/fo...mier-League--Martin-Samuel.html#ixzz3YXZhKCem
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Always gratifying seeing Spurs and Liverpool at the bottom of that letter. Always puts a smile on my face.

 

[Bruun]

Bayern resigned with Adidas, getting €60m a year now

Our deal with Nike at the minute is pathetic

Adidas don't mess around with their big teams

€60m a year for Bayern

€100m a year for Rags.