Clattenburg, the FA & Adebayor - proof that the system is bent

[Bozzie]

Put yourself in the ref's shoes for this exact incident. He might see that *something* happened, but he might not have seen exactly what did happen. If he's not entirely sure that Sergio swung an elbow with the intent he apparently did, he can't punish him for it there & then but he can go back and see what did happen.

I understand the point from blues that if he was wearing a red shirt the outcome would likely be different, see Fellaini, Rooney etc consistently escaping punishment.

Jacob, I will just reiterate a point I made a couple of days ago. Andre Marriner is a professional referee, he is paid to make split second decisions whilst under pressure, that is his job. The fact that he may have made a mistake with Aguero, and most of us accept he did, does not alter the fact that he saw it and that, under current regulations, is one of the criteria for retrospective action. Whether we would have 'dodged a bullet' if Aguero hadn't been banned is immaterial. If you cannot trust the FA and referees to administer rules to the letter of the law then it's a worrying situation for all clubs, that is the bigger issue.

 

[Neville Kneville]

He can't do that, the regs say if he saw the course of play, my words, then he doesn't have the option to review it afterwards. FIFA don't want the game to be reffed after the game they want real-time otherwise ever incident should be reviewed. There were numerous incidents in this game that need re-reffing, Sergio was called offside when he was free on goal, TV showed he wasn't, the WHU fullback should have been sent-off for second booking then committed another bookable offence but went on to cross for their goal. IMHO there should be no retro action.

If it was like in Cricket, where you just have a neutral, unbiased ref who gives an honest decision based on science, I'd have no problem with limited video stuff. But as soon as it involves 'judgement' it means the rags get more points.

 

[crazyg]

Put yourself in the ref's shoes for this exact incident. He might see that *something* happened, but he might not have seen exactly what did happen. If he's not entirely sure that Sergio swung an elbow with the intent he apparently did, he can't punish him for it there & then but he can go back and see what did happen.

I understand the point from blues that if he was wearing a red shirt the outcome would likely be different, see Fellaini, Rooney etc consistently escaping punishment.

You're quite right, he can't give a decision he didn't see (unlike Clattenburg). But what he CAN'T do is referee it retrospectively after the game by saying that he didn't see it fully at the time, which, as you allude, he DID see at the time. That is both lying and cheating, which is the whole point of this (and other) thread.

 

[City Raider]

Who appointed Riley? Is Gill anywhere near?

 

[Rolee]

Put yourself in the ref's shoes for this exact incident. He might see that *something* happened, but he might not have seen exactly what did happen. If he's not entirely sure that Sergio swung an elbow with the intent he apparently did, he can't punish him for it there & then but he can go back and see what did happen.

I understand the point from blues that if he was wearing a red shirt the outcome would likely be different, see Fellaini, Rooney etc consistently escaping punishment.

Right, I'm putting myself in the ref's shoes. I saw that incident and judged it at the time, I'm surprised I didn't see the arm thrown by Aguero at the time and I am disappointed in myself for missing it as it is my job to be able to spot these things and rule on them accordingly as they happen. I am happy to face the consequences of my actions.

What's that? I don't have to face any consequences, all I have to say is I didn't see it despite the fact I was looking straight at it? Great, I think it's absurd but if it means I don't suffer any consequences then I'm all for it.

 

[waspish]

Who appointed Riley? Is Gill anywhere near?


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[Jacob Smith]

He can't do that, the regs say if he saw the course of play, my words, then he doesn't have the option to review it afterwards. FIFA don't want the game to be reffed after the game they want real-time otherwise ever incident should be reviewed. There were numerous incidents in this game that need re-reffing, Sergio was called offside when he was free on goal, TV showed he wasn't, the WHU fullback should have been sent-off for second booking then committed another bookable offence but went on to cross for their goal. IMHO there should be no retro action.

They're trialling "semi-live" assistants at the minute I believe, so hopefully we're well on our way to having fully automated refs and the elimination of mistakes

 

[Lythamblue]

Will be interesting at our next game that he gets to referee, can see it being a long while though!!!

 

[Jacob Smith]

You're quite right, he can't give a decision he didn't see (unlike Clattenburg). But what he CAN'T do is referee it retrospectively after the game by saying that he didn't see it fully at the time, which, as you allude, he DID see at the time. That is both lying and cheating, which is the whole point of this (and other) thread.

But there can be a difference between seeing it and seeing it fully, only he knows whether he saw what actually happened. The elbow might have been swung at the exact same time he was turning his head towards the two players or vice versa.

 

[Jacob Smith]

Jacob, I will just reiterate a point I made a couple of days ago. Andre Marriner is a professional referee, he is paid to make split second decisions whilst under pressure, that is his job. The fact that he may have made a mistake with Aguero, and most of us accept he did, does not alter the fact that he saw it and that, under current regulations, is one of the criteria for retrospective action. Whether we would have 'dodged a bullet' if Aguero hadn't been banned is immaterial. If you cannot trust the FA and referees to administer rules to the letter of the law then it's a worrying situation for all clubs, that is the bigger issue.

Good point & well made. I think the gist of this thread is that either the rules need changing so they can be applied to all incidents or the referees need automating. I want the latter, because no matter how good a human referee is, he will always make mistakes or errors of judgement as it's human nature.