Coronavirus (2021) thread

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Total cases from the three nations with England to add:- 990


1792 v 1294 v 977 v 1063 v 931 v 990 TODAY


Though 57 of that 990 are old ones mislaid from weeks ago so it is all but flat wk to wk.
 
roubaixtuesday said:
What? Someone with an absolutely fixed view of things?? On the Internet???

Say it aint so!

View attachment 13077
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So you're changing your mind then?

BTW, they continue to get it wrong. Having first made an unfounded and knee-jerk reaction leading to suspension, they now say its safe and the benefits outweigh the risks. Fine.

But they go on to say that there is a small elevated risk of a certain type of clot and that patients should be made aware of that risk. And yet, here's the critical thing, they later go on to say that "There is currently no evidence that the occurrence of these clotting disorders was caused by the vaccine."

So it is yet further idiotic behaviour to suggest that people should be warned of a risk, because it will only go to put some people off. Buffoons.
 
Chippy_boy said:
So you're changing your mind then?
Click to expand...

Of course not. I know I'm right, it's other people that are wrong ;-)

You may have noticed that I do agree with you that suspending the vaccine was the wrong thing to do (incidentally I actually got my own vaccination, AZ, during the German suspension). I just think it's extremely unhelpful to think of these things in such binary right and wrong terms, and that seeking understanding is more important than rushing to judgement.

I would encourage you not to dismiss genuine experts in this as "Buffoons". Who knows, you may be able to learn something from people who've spent their entire lives studying the issue.
 
Healdplace said:
Zoe symptoms App sees cases fall by 49 to 4918 - it has been around the same number for days - much as the actual cases reported later in the day have been - all be it scoring a few hundred more. around 5400.

The number of people in the UK with symptoms of Covid self reported to the App however falls again as it has now for several weeks daily. Down 637 in the day to 73, 250.

More than one in 900.
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Good news. Slow but steady progress and few real spikes, and only 1 in 900 having Covid (presume that's what it implies) really reduces risks of asymptomatic transmission.
 
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roubaixtuesday said:
Of course not. I know I'm right, it's other people that are wrong ;-)

You may have noticed that I do agree with you that suspending the vaccine was the wrong thing to do (incidentally I actually got my own vaccination, AZ, during the German suspension). I just think it's extremely unhelpful to think of these things in such binary right and wrong terms, and that seeking understanding is more important than rushing to judgement.

I do think some experts have been led by the politicians.
Other experts have said "we do not know The answer"
Some experts can be influenced by confirmation bias.
Experts do sometimes get medical dilemmas wrong.
Most experts do their best, and that is all we can ask.

I would encourage you not to dismiss genuine experts in this as "Buffoons". Who knows, you may be able to learn something from people who've spent their entire lives studying the issue.
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roubaixtuesday said:
Of course not. I know I'm right, it's other people that are wrong ;-)

You may have noticed that I do agree with you that suspending the vaccine was the wrong thing to do (incidentally I actually got my own vaccination, AZ, during the German suspension). I just think it's extremely unhelpful to think of these things in such binary right and wrong terms, and that seeking understanding is more important than rushing to judgement.

I would encourage you not to dismiss genuine experts in this as "Buffoons". Who knows, you may be able to learn something from people who've spent their entire lives studying the issue.
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Mate, I say again, this is a football forum. This is banter, you should try it, it's fun. People with different views to your own are idiots. It's as simple as that, no subtleties necessary.
 
Chippy_boy said:
I was speaking to my colleague in Bordeaux about this only the other day and it's abundantly clear to many in France that their rubbishing of the AZ vaccine was nothing more than political bullshit.

And as an aside, the incidence of blood clot amongst those vaccinated with the AZ product is not only lower than in the general population (which I knew, but still find hilarious). What I did not know is that it's also lower than for the pfizer vaccination population! So suspending it over blood clot "fears" was always bollocks.
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I knew the last bit but the issue was the types of clot occurring - cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST),
it turns out that it was related to the population being vaccinated - mostly female and mostly younger age groups in healthcare and they found out how to treat it too. So if you have a headache lasting x hours you need to do X. Must like the guidance document for women taking the pill which can cause clots (in far greater percentage numbers i may add)
www.wsj.com

Scientists Say They Found Cause of Rare Blood Clotting Linked to AstraZeneca Vaccine

Two teams of medical researchers in Norway and Germany have independently found that the vaccine could trigger an autoimmune disorder causing blood to clot in the brain in rare cases, and suggest a possible treatment for it.
www.wsj.com www.wsj.com
 
BlueAnorak said:
I knew the last bit but the issue was the types of clot occurring - cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST),
it turns out that it was related to the population being vaccinated - mostly female and mostly younger age groups in healthcare and they found out how to treat it too. So if you have a headache lasting x hours you need to do X. Must like the guidance document for women taking the pill which can cause clots (in far greater numbers i may add)
www.wsj.com

Scientists Say They Found Cause of Rare Blood Clotting Linked to AstraZeneca Vaccine

Two teams of medical researchers in Norway and Germany have independently found that the vaccine could trigger an autoimmune disorder causing blood to clot in the brain in rare cases, and suggest a possible treatment for it.
www.wsj.com www.wsj.com
Click to expand...

One person's buffoon is another person's boffin...
 
BlueAnorak said:
I knew the last bit but the issue was the types of clot occurring - cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST),
it turns out that it was related to the population being vaccinated - mostly female and mostly younger age groups in healthcare and they found out how to treat it too. So if you have a headache lasting x hours you need to do X. Must like the guidance document for women taking the pill which can cause clots (in far greater percentage numbers i may add)
www.wsj.com

Scientists Say They Found Cause of Rare Blood Clotting Linked to AstraZeneca Vaccine

Two teams of medical researchers in Norway and Germany have independently found that the vaccine could trigger an autoimmune disorder causing blood to clot in the brain in rare cases, and suggest a possible treatment for it.
www.wsj.com www.wsj.com
Click to expand...
BTW its still correlation not causation but they know how to treat the problem.
 
roubaixtuesday said:
Of course not. I know I'm right, it's other people that are wrong ;-)

You may have noticed that I do agree with you that suspending the vaccine was the wrong thing to do (incidentally I actually got my own vaccination, AZ, during the German suspension). I just think it's extremely unhelpful to think of these things in such binary right and wrong terms, and that seeking understanding is more important than rushing to judgement.

I would encourage you not to dismiss genuine experts in this as "Buffoons". Who knows, you may be able to learn something from people who've spent their entire lives studying the issue.
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Question remains, would the suspension have happened if it was a German vaccine? I doubt it. So whether the Paul Ehrlich Institute is full of clever people or not, it’s not beyond the realms of comprehension to believe there was an element of political or patriotic bias in their decision to suspend.
 
Chippy_boy said:
So you're changing your mind then?

BTW, they continue to get it wrong. Having first made an unfounded and knee-jerk reaction leading to suspension, they now say its safe and the benefits outweigh the risks. Fine.

But they go on to say that there is a small elevated risk of a certain type of clot and that patients should be made aware of that risk. And yet, here's the critical thing, they later go on to say that "There is currently no evidence that the occurrence of these clotting disorders was caused by the vaccine."

So it is yet further idiotic behaviour to suggest that people should be warned of a risk, because it will only go to put some people off. Buffoons.
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It's not a matter of right or wrong, it's a matter of process. A tentative link (which was credible) was found and so it had to be investigated. It's all part of the business as usual activities of maintaining a drug once it's on the market.

What's not right is politicians sticking their noses in and causing hysteria, it should be celebrated that we have a thoroughly regulated and robust system in place to identify and investigate these things.
 
03 March 2002 said:
It's not a matter of right or wrong, it's a matter of process. A tentative link (which was credible) was found and so it had to be investigated. It's all part of the business as usual activities of maintaining a drug once it's on the market.

What's not right is politicians sticking their noses in and causing hysteria, it should be celebrated that we have a thoroughly regulated and robust system in place to identify and investigate these things.
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I'm sorry but I don't agree, and moreover the UK scientific community and UK government didn't agree either.

Normal practice in drug development would have followed the course you suggest, but in normal circumstances, thousands of people do not die unnecessarily if a drug rollout is paused. But these are not normal times and suspension of the vaccine based upon such scant evidence and very few cases was therefore the wrong thing to do. It's not a matter of process, it was just the wrong thing to do. They should have continued the vaccination program whilst at the same time investigating the bloody clot issue. That would have been the sensible option considering the numbers involved. We could easily see how many more clots would have occurred (whether by cause or correlation) and easily see that this would result in fewer deaths than COVID deaths due to non-vaccination. Pauding was stupid.

Many things have had to be done differently to get us to the tremendous situation we are in with viable vaccines being delivered at scale, only months since the first outbreak. This is incredible. Things that were normally done sequentially, had to be done in parallel, with an assumption the otherwise preceding tests are going to be successful. In short, we had to rip up the rule book and this has worked.
 
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Chippy_boy said:
I'm sorry but I don't agree, and moreover the UK scientific community and UK government didn't agree either.

Normal practise in drug development would have followed the course you suggest, but in normal circumstances, thousands of people do not die unnecessarily if a drug rollout is paused. These are not normal times and suspension of the vaccine based upon such scant evidence and very few cases was the wrong. It's not a matter of process, it was just the wrong thing to do. They got it wrong.
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The UK scientific community does agree, it's how we maintain our standards and integrity. They don't agree there is a link between the AZ vaccine and these blood clots, but that's not the same thing.
Who cares what the UK Government think?

So do you think halting the sale of Ranitidine and other nitrosamine-containing drugs is wrong too? Plenty of people rely on those drugs daily. They've been taken off the market indefinitely as a result of a similar situation. The amount of work it's caused us (me) to deal with the issue is incredible. The standards we've set ourselves are outrageous and the bottom line is people aren't receiving the medications they rely on, but how can we in good faith ignore it?

The rules don't change because we are in a global pandemic, if anything they are under the microscope more so.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Many things have had to be done differently to get us to the tremendous situation we are in with viable vaccines being delivered at scale, only months since the first outbreak. This is incredible. Things that were normally done sequentially, had to be done in parallel, with an assumption the otherwise preceding tests are going to be successful. In short, we had to rip up the rule book and this has worked.
Click to expand...
Things were done this way, as they could have been done prior to this pandemic because of the concerted effort of the scientific community and a shit load of wonga. It's not ripping up the rule book, it's showing what can be done within the current ruleset when everyone is on the same page and there are no barriers.
 
The Northern Ireland case data by age range testing positive today shows their numbers from past 7 days cases:

0 - 19 (209) 20.6%

20 - 39 (398) 39.3%

40 - 59 (276) 27.2%

60 - 79 (102) 10.1%

80 PLUS (28) 2.8%


As you can see the numbers over 60 testing positive are falling week by week. It is down from over 25% and was about 18% a week or two ago and is now under 13%.

Whereas the younger ages are increasing in percentage and now more are under 20 than over 60. And probably treble under 30 than over 60.
 
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