David Moyes - Honest opinions

[Prestwich_Blue]

Cracking post on RAWK from someone called PhaseofPlay, who has his coaching badges:

It's not about "forgetting to play as an aggressive attacking unit". It's about playing to a whole new set of principles and tactical triggers. Every Ferguson team since he arrived there in 1986 has been drilled in a set of triggers that have dictated United's play. These triggers involve the movements of the wingers, the rotations of the forwards, the timing of the fullback runs, the covering back with the movement of the ball, and the triggers for counterattacking, possessing, and penetration. These triggers - similar to Barcelona - are based off player movements, so there is an element of improvisation that exists in Ferguson's set up, that allows the talented players to express themselves.

Moyes and his coaching staff, on the other hand, operate under a different framework. They value the position of the ball more, and play to shape rather movement. When the ball is in X position on the field, the team will have to have Y shape. Much like how Hodgson coaches. Until now, his attacks have been pretty direct, so it will be interesting to see if he allows more latitude, but if he does, it will be more freeform, with players now having to survive off their wits. Any new players that get brought in will also now not have the triggers that the already present players have been drilled in, so already there will be a degree of tactical confusion. When the fullback picks a moment to go on an overlap - because that's when Ferguson would want them to - they may violate Moyes' rules of shape, and so have their former patterns of play curbed. This is essentially what happened for us when Hodgson took over from Rafa - they actually had similar methodologies, but Rafa was more concerned with pressing space and letting the ability of the opponents to move beyond the pressure dictate when the team would drop. There were specific cues for movement, shifting, dropping, pressing and covering. The patterns of play were also worked on, based on visual triggers for direct attacks to Torres, or one-touch pass and move based on where the ball was won. Hodgson, however, didn't have this. His triggers involved dropping back in every situation, setting up shape in front of the box, and defending from there. There were no patterns of attack either, other than hitting it long and improvising from that scenario. We know how that turned out, and players are not silly - they'll know if there's a difference in the quality of training and the quality of information they are being given. They won't settle for hamburger when they had steak for years before.

So there are clear indicators that United will perform well below their usual level. With City having money and a less volatile manager, Chelsea having money and the momentum of Mourinho's return, Arsenal being Arsenal, and us and Spurs looking to make the Great Leap again, any slip-up could cost United the security of the positions they've held for 2 decades.

 

[Anonymous]

Interesting post that. However, and again it pains me dearly to say this, Moyes will still deliver trophies to them. He's got Wigan in the Charity Shield which should give him a nice soft landing into the role proper and that should be a catalyst to build some momentum for the season.

From there, you know what you are going to get - dogged determination, typically solid back four and has the added bonus of having better quality creative players at the rags than he did Everton.

It kills me to say it, but he has everything laid on for him to be successful. I just hope he chokes like Allardyce at Newcastle.

 

[mancitymick]

Right, this is going to hurt me typing this...

Moyes is a very good manager as proven at Everton where he got them essentially punching above their weight considering the budget and the chairman he had to work with. He consistently finished high up the table and got them to 4th one season.

He may well have not had the budget we have however he did buy a fair amount of players in the 5-15 million range and a lot of them were garbage

 

[lancs blue]

Interesting post that. However, and again it pains me dearly to say this, Moyes will still deliver trophies to them. He's got Wigan in the Charity Shield which should give him a nice soft landing into the role proper and that should be a catalyst to build some momentum for the season.

From there, you know what you are going to get - dogged determination, typically solid back four and has the added bonus of having better quality creative players at the rags than he did Everton.

It kills me to say it, but he has everything laid on for him to be successful. I just hope he chokes like Allardyce at Newcastle.

He may well deliver a few domestic cups and keep them in the top 4 but I just cannot see him winning a string of league titles and the odd CL, no way is he good enough to do that IMO. If he was that level of manager he would at least have won a League Cup in 11 years at Everton. I don't buy the "overachieving" tag either, Everton under Moyes generally finished about where I'd expect a club of Everton's stature to be in the current money-dominated PL.

 

[tiggsywiggsywoo]

Interesting post that. However, and again it pains me dearly to say this, Moyes will still deliver trophies to them. He's got Wigan in the Charity Shield which should give him a nice soft landing into the role proper and that should be a catalyst to build some momentum for the season.

From there, you know what you are going to get - dogged determination, typically solid back four and has the added bonus of having better quality creative players at the rags than he did Everton.

It kills me to say it, but he has everything laid on for him to be successful. I just hope he chokes like Allardyce at Newcastle.

Hmm and who did Wigan beat in order to get to the Charity Shield? Soft landing, well maybe.

 

[stony]

Cracking post on RAWK from someone called PhaseofPlay, who has his coaching badges:

It's not about "forgetting to play as an aggressive attacking unit". It's about playing to a whole new set of principles and tactical triggers. Every Ferguson team since he arrived there in 1986 has been drilled in a set of triggers that have dictated United's play. These triggers involve the movements of the wingers, the rotations of the forwards, the timing of the fullback runs, the covering back with the movement of the ball, and the triggers for counterattacking, possessing, and penetration. These triggers - similar to Barcelona - are based off player movements, so there is an element of improvisation that exists in Ferguson's set up, that allows the talented players to express themselves.

Moyes and his coaching staff, on the other hand, operate under a different framework. They value the position of the ball more, and play to shape rather movement. When the ball is in X position on the field, the team will have to have Y shape. Much like how Hodgson coaches. Until now, his attacks have been pretty direct, so it will be interesting to see if he allows more latitude, but if he does, it will be more freeform, with players now having to survive off their wits. Any new players that get brought in will also now not have the triggers that the already present players have been drilled in, so already there will be a degree of tactical confusion. When the fullback picks a moment to go on an overlap - because that's when Ferguson would want them to - they may violate Moyes' rules of shape, and so have their former patterns of play curbed. This is essentially what happened for us when Hodgson took over from Rafa - they actually had similar methodologies, but Rafa was more concerned with pressing space and letting the ability of the opponents to move beyond the pressure dictate when the team would drop. There were specific cues for movement, shifting, dropping, pressing and covering. The patterns of play were also worked on, based on visual triggers for direct attacks to Torres, or one-touch pass and move based on where the ball was won. Hodgson, however, didn't have this. His triggers involved dropping back in every situation, setting up shape in front of the box, and defending from there. There were no patterns of attack either, other than hitting it long and improvising from that scenario. We know how that turned out, and players are not silly - they'll know if there's a difference in the quality of training and the quality of information they are being given. They won't settle for hamburger when they had steak for years before.

So there are clear indicators that United will perform well below their usual level. With City having money and a less volatile manager, Chelsea having money and the momentum of Mourinho's return, Arsenal being Arsenal, and us and Spurs looking to make the Great Leap again, any slip-up could cost United the security of the positions they've held for 2 decades.

Great find PB, very interesting and insightful post.

 

[Anonymous]

Interesting post that. However, and again it pains me dearly to say this, Moyes will still deliver trophies to them. He's got Wigan in the Charity Shield which should give him a nice soft landing into the role proper and that should be a catalyst to build some momentum for the season.

From there, you know what you are going to get - dogged determination, typically solid back four and has the added bonus of having better quality creative players at the rags than he did Everton.

It kills me to say it, but he has everything laid on for him to be successful. I just hope he chokes like Allardyce at Newcastle.

Hmm and who did Wigan beat in order to get to the Charity Shield? Soft landing, well maybe.

I know, I know. No Martinez now and Kone following him to Everton by the sound of things. If I was a Wigan fan, I'd be fearing a cricket score.

Anyway, I'm nearly on my 10,000th post and the last thing I would want would be to waste it saying anything positive about those bastards so I'm off :))

 

[Blueroses]

In all hones


Moyes will win a trophy for United with chances high with wigan being the team...where have we heard that one before?

I get the feeling he might keep the ship steady at united and possibly keep them in the top 4, I feel the club has been very successful and having that winning mentality it should be a pretty easy job to get the ground running.

Champions league should not be difficult since United always get a easy group if they don't finish top of the group then that would be disaster like last time like the season 2011-2012. Would pile on the pressure imo unless the media are still giving him excuses/ leeway like the Brendan Rogers get. They are already hyping him up before he even got the job so will be intriguing to see how this one pans out.

Would be hilarious if united dropped out of the top 4 but can't see it happening but if they did then Moyes will have to f up big time.

Interesting season ahead with a lot at stake for all the clubs in the premier league.

 

[shackattack]

Moyes has no particular ideology of how to play football. Arsène Wenger of Arsenal, say, has always striven for a fast-passing attacking game. Moyes, by contrast, tailored Everton’s style to each new opponent. He worked out what the opposition did – and then tried to stop it. i can see a lot of draws for united next season and his european knowledge ( villareal in CL ) will see him struggling for success. Moyes has a fascination with the minute parts of the game using prozone data but does not focus on what makes good football , he never has and he never will. he will undoubtedly win a trophy or two but the style of football will be awful to watch. for that reason i see problems with the fanbase and senior players alike. can see more clubs going to OT with positive hopes of getting a result as referees will not be intimidated by moyes as they were SAF.

 

[SWP's back]

Interesting post that. However, and again it pains me dearly to say this, Moyes will still deliver trophies to them. He's got Wigan in the Charity Shield which should give him a nice soft landing into the role proper and that should be a catalyst to build some momentum for the season.

From there, you know what you are going to get - dogged determination, typically solid back four and has the added bonus of having better quality creative players at the rags than he did Everton.

It kills me to say it, but he has everything laid on for him to be successful. I just hope he chokes like Allardyce at Newcastle.

Hmm and who did Wigan beat in order to get to the Charity Shield? Soft landing, well maybe.

Yes they beat us before the firesale.