Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 2)

[flb]

Well, Cavani went to PSG, Falcao and plenty of others went to Monaco. Who knows why indeed. I will say that Real had no problem recruiting world stars during long periods of inadequate CL performance. Why? Money, and prestige. I think. I've hinted before that I think money and prestige is doable for us - and hope that the other stuff will come out of that. I think doing it the other way round is going to be attrition - it won't save us money (look at this summer) and it will drive us fans insane much as Wenger and Benitez drove their fans potty.

I agree with your targets. I just wish they were different. The league and a huge dollop of prestige is there for the taking this year. But then again, the Derby is this weekend and is more valuable to our league challenge than Stoke away was.

And I can see, an away win tonight sets us up beautifully in the group. Our progression depends massively on beating the weaker teams, because against the top teams, it's anybody's guess what will happen. an early win would mean we only needed to beat the two weaker teams at home and we'd have 9 points. A good result would also give much needed belief to the players in their ability in this competition.

But I disagree that Pelle is nailed on for 2 years. We have no way of knowing what happens from here. Out of the group and title race by the end of January, and the reasons for his appointment lie in pieces.

I have to laugh when Blueinsa says 'if he doesn't get us top four'. TOP FUCKING FOUR? You thought the last guy deserved shooting for failing to challenge for the league, we spend 100m, and the new target is... top 4. Just... no.

In terms of success in the CL ... for the moment that means getting out of the group stage - from there it's a bit of a lottery. My point about PSG/Cavani was that IMO he wouldn't have ended up there had they gone out in the group stages last season. I guess we'll never know and maybe Lavezzi being there would've swung it anyway, but I do believe that success in the CL helps player recruitment because it helps build prestige for a club like ours which maybe doesn't have the cache of Madrid/Barca.

I find the discussions about Pellegrini's job stability to be more than a bit disingenuous if i'm honest. Like you say, we're not a team challenging for the top 4, we're a team challenging for the title. It's only the dumb disingenuous few who are making noises about how "we're going to struggle to finish in the top 4". Yes the league is more competitive, but we are still arguably the best squad in it and certainly have the most fire power/goals in us. I probably disagree with you in that even if I'm wrong (which I'm not!) and we don't challenge for the title - well Pellegrini will get another season regardless. It's just not in the nature of Mansour/Khaldoon/Txiki/Ferran to knee jerk dump a manager because he struggles in his first season. Again, maybe I underestimate their loyalty ... but I don't think so!

Billy, so you think we are guaranteed a top four finish then? Id hardly say it makes people dumb and disingenuous for thinking the unthinkable, Arsenal have teetered on the brink for a few seasons now with a very good footballing system in place that has stood the test of time, Chelsea slipped out with a very good squad of players.

Why are City bulletproof from it happening to us?

 

[blueinsa]

We dont want or need a manager anymore, we want a first team coach.

Ferran and Txiki are in charge.

Whatever the semantics of manager/coach etc ... the reality is that across Europe it is accepted that the overwhelmingly vast majority of managers have a cycle of 3/5 years at whatever club they're at. The English obsession with having one man and pledging allegiance to him indefinitely is ... well it's just and English obsession. Mancini had 3 and half years, Pellegrini will have IMO somewhere around that, and so will the next guy, and the guy after.

Agreed mate.

The point I make is that a manager like Ferguson and Bob for that, demanded things all there own way and whilst that's fine when its working, come the end of the relationship, it spells huge turmoil for a club trying to move on and its something the rags will see over the next 12-18 months imo.

Mansour has gone through it twice now with Clueless and Bob and is in no hurry to ever repeat it imo.

 

[Phil1]

We dont want or need a manager anymore, we want a first team coach.

Ferran and Txiki are in charge.

Whatever the semantics of manager/coach etc ... the reality is that across Europe it is accepted that the overwhelmingly vast majority of managers have a cycle of 3/5 years at whatever club they're at. The English obsession with having one man and pledging allegiance to him indefinitely is ... well it's just and English obsession. Mancini had 3 and half years, Pellegrini will have IMO somewhere around that, and so will the next guy, and the guy after.

I'm not sure City are the right club to talk about a manager being here indefinitely mate, we went through the fuckers like there was no tomorrow when we didn't have a pot to piss in and we're seemingly keeping that going whilst we're wedged - I'd say that's pretty consistent.. :-)

 

[supercity88]

Mancini didn't fit in with what the Barca boys wanted from a manager. They don't like Mourinho's style either, they prefer longevity and consistency so that the manager essentially over sees a product that is already set up to succeed. Mourinho has a 2-3 year life at a club, it is after this time that he starts to upset the settled core of his sides and generally has to move on. He is also a self centred individual that want to succeed for his ego rather than for the good of a team or his players. Aside from his win with Porto in the Champions League he has always gone to clubs where large sums have been spent and he continues to spend huge sums of money. Mancini was similar, he was also sacked from Inter based on Champions League form and Mourinho went and won it the following year. I believe that last season Mancini altered things too much in Europe, he tried too hard because he is more than aware he has a poor reputation in Europe and it will continue to nag at him.

The Barca boys talk about a holistic approach to things and whilst that has become a buzz word what I feel they mean is that the clubs goals and ambitions are filtered through the first team and down. So that the young kids coming through know the clubs goals and learn the basic, technique and movement and they are ready made to play in the first team. They can still mould to a change of formation but will play football the correct way. To oversee that they needed a manager that could provide stability and ensure that young players felt mentored. They chose Pellegrini based on his achievements in the Champions league and "success" both at smaller sides and with Real, which was their record points haul. They saw him close up when they were over seeing Guardiola at Barca and one of the greatest club sides in history. They clearly respected him.

Anyway coming away from all that long term talk and football philosophy, looking at Pellegrini so far is a mixed bag. We had a great first win of the season but followed it up with three poor performances albeit a loss, win and draw. 7 points from those games still puts us right in the mix and aside from Cardiff result I think we can be happy with that so far. We have had injury issues and there will be a few months until we gel. This week provides the ultimate test. An away game we should win and the derby where we will see how motivated the players are and will get an insight into how Pellegrini will perform. I do wonder why people think he is the wrong person now, he is proven as a great manager and he will come good. After ten games we will get a better picture on both domestic and european fronts and then we will know where we are at in terms of progress. I have full faith in him coming good and in terms of time, well I will give him as long as the Barca boys do because I agree with their methodology and I like their approach to producing players through the academy and learning the basics so they are complete footballers.

 

[blueinsa]

I will go as far as saying I would expect a really serious crack at the Europa should we drop into it as well like Chelsea.

Pellegrini is well aware of what's required.<br /><br />-- Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:22 am --<br /><br />

Mancini didn't fit in with what the Barca boys wanted from a manager. They don't like Mourinho's style either, they prefer longevity and consistency so that the manager essentially over sees a product that is already set up to succeed. Mourinho has a 2-3 year life at a club, it is after this time that he starts to upset the settled core of his sides and generally has to move on. He is also a self centred individual that want to succeed for his ego rather than for the good of a team or his players. Aside from his win with Porto in the Champions League he has always gone to clubs where large sums have been spent and he continues to spend huge sums of money. Mancini was similar, he was also sacked from Inter based on Champions League form and Mourinho went and won it the following year. I believe that last season Mancini altered things too much in Europe, he tried too hard because he is more than aware he has a poor reputation in Europe and it will continue to nag at him.

The Barca boys talk about a holistic approach to things and whilst that has become a buzz word what I feel they mean is that the clubs goals and ambitions are filtered through the first team and down. So that the young kids coming through know the clubs goals and learn the basic, technique and movement and they are ready made to play in the first team. They can still mould to a change of formation but will play football the correct way. To oversee that they needed a manager that could provide stability and ensure that young players felt mentored. They chose Pellegrini based on his achievements in the Champions league and "success" both at smaller sides and with Real, which was their record points haul. They saw him close up when they were over seeing Guardiola at Barca and one of the greatest club sides in history. They clearly respected him.

Anyway coming away from all that long term talk and football philosophy, looking at Pellegrini so far is a mixed bag. We had a great first win of the season but followed it up with three poor performances albeit a loss, win and draw. 7 points from those games still puts us right in the mix and aside from Cardiff result I think we can be happy with that so far. We have had injury issues and there will be a few months until we gel. This week provides the ultimate test. An away game we should win and the derby where we will see how motivated the players are and will get an insight into how Pellegrini will perform. I do wonder why people think he is the wrong person now, he is proven as a great manager and he will come good. After ten games we will get a better picture on both domestic and european fronts and then we will know where we are at in terms of progress. I have full faith in him coming good and in terms of time, well I will give him as long as the Barca boys do because I agree with their methodology and I like their approach to producing players through the academy and learning the basics so they are complete footballers.

Excellent post mate, you should come on more.

 

[flb]

Mancini didn't fit in with what the Barca boys wanted from a manager. They don't like Mourinho's style either, they prefer longevity and consistency so that the manager essentially over sees a product that is already set up to succeed. Mourinho has a 2-3 year life at a club, it is after this time that he starts to upset the settled core of his sides and generally has to move on. He is also a self centred individual that want to succeed for his ego rather than for the good of a team or his players. Aside from his win with Porto in the Champions League he has always gone to clubs where large sums have been spent and he continues to spend huge sums of money. Mancini was similar, he was also sacked from Inter based on Champions League form and Mourinho went and won it the following year. I believe that last season Mancini altered things too much in Europe, he tried too hard because he is more than aware he has a poor reputation in Europe and it will continue to nag at him.

The Barca boys talk about a holistic approach to things and whilst that has become a buzz word what I feel they mean is that the clubs goals and ambitions are filtered through the first team and down. So that the young kids coming through know the clubs goals and learn the basic, technique and movement and they are ready made to play in the first team. They can still mould to a change of formation but will play football the correct way. To oversee that they needed a manager that could provide stability and ensure that young players felt mentored. They chose Pellegrini based on his achievements in the Champions league and "success" both at smaller sides and with Real, which was their record points haul. They saw him close up when they were over seeing Guardiola at Barca and one of the greatest club sides in history. They clearly respected him.

Anyway coming away from all that long term talk and football philosophy, looking at Pellegrini so far is a mixed bag. We had a great first win of the season but followed it up with three poor performances albeit a loss, win and draw. 7 points from those games still puts us right in the mix and aside from Cardiff result I think we can be happy with that so far. We have had injury issues and there will be a few months until we gel. This week provides the ultimate test. An away game we should win and the derby where we will see how motivated the players are and will get an insight into how Pellegrini will perform. I do wonder why people think he is the wrong person now, he is proven as a great manager and he will come good. After ten games we will get a better picture on both domestic and european fronts and then we will know where we are at in terms of progress. I have full faith in him coming good and in terms of time, well I will give him as long as the Barca boys do because I agree with their methodology and I like their approach to producing players through the academy and learning the basics so they are complete footballers.

Thing is mate we don't even have a footballing system in place yet, its all well and good changing your manager every three seasons if there is a system in place, the training complex isn't even finished yet but we are hearing stories of home grown talent making the first team in 3-4 seasons. It took Barca a decade to realise the fruits of there labour.

For me this is Soriano's and Txiki's biggest challenge-replicating what they did there.

 

[Gaylord du Bois]

I have to laugh when Blueinsa says 'if he doesn't get us top four'. TOP FUCKING FOUR? You thought the last guy deserved shooting for failing to challenge for the league, we spend 100m, and the new target is... top 4. Just... no.

I say it because if he qualifies us from the group stages of the CL and at least qualifies us again via a top 4 spot he will keep his job. I get the feeling he is very much a man keeping a seat warm and he is not a long term appointee anyway and because of this, we wont be in such a hurry to get rid until the new man is ready to take over.

Would i be happy with that? No I wouldn't be fucking happy and would be happy for him to get the boot for underachieving just as i was with Bob.

Hope that clarifies my stance for you.

The thing for me is if we get fourth its got to be fourth and trophies. Fourth in its own means we been a bastard of a battle with fifth and sixth for the latter part of the season. Now with the investment we've had that's got to be unacceptable unless of course there's been the added distraction of cup finals and a lengthy CL run for fourths migitigation.

 

[dancity19]

How did I know that was coming-Tricky away game?? If Stoke had any decent strikers we could easily have lost that..Hull could have been 2 up easily..
Explain Cardiff-I bet you say no VK....
We were promised flare..Not seen any yet-apart from against Newcastle but that may as well have been the dog and duck!

SHB- I am sure during the summer you said, though you were a Mancini inner, that you thought pellegrini was a great appointment and how you were looking forward to this season. You now seem determined for him to fail.

Secondly, I bet every time Mancini drew at stoke, you used the tough away game excuse.

The fact is, this has not been the start anyone expected. Very underwhelming. But 4 games have gone and that is way too early to judge.

This whole thread has just turned into a bit of a point scoring between Mancini inners and outers. Just like last season. But everyone has to get over it. Pellegrini didn't sack Mancini. Dave and billy didn't sack Mancini. I

To early to judge in your opinion. I am entitled to mine and will stick to it.
He has won fuck all in Spain-a 2 team league.
He has changed nothing-and he has had a whole pre season to endorse his ways on the team.
I want him toi fail-Yeah course I do you idiot-That is why I keep taking leave,spending my hard earned just to score cheap points.Get real
It's a forum and it's about opinions-I have mine.Most don't agree but if he is a huge success I will say I was wrong. If he is not then I won't say I told you so.Yes I admired Mancini but he had his faults but it's about now and I have seen nowt that fills me with any confidence-4 games or not!

You obviously don't want city to fail. But I think part of you would be satisfied in a perverse way if pellegrini fails as it would be revenge for the Mancini sacking. Anyway, that's not the point. You seemed so behind pellegrini in the summer???

I am not filled with confidence at the moment, it has been a very poor start, like I said, no one can deny that! But after 4 games it is a little rash, I think, to claim he isn't up to it. Give it 10 games, if we haven't improved then I think a lot of questions will be asked. It's been a poor start, but we have only played 4 games!

 

[Balti]

i think we will come good-ish. if we don't then I think the manager would be under incredible pressure from the fans and the inevitable constant medja sniping that would follow.

A win tonight is a must but not losing the derby is even more important in my eyes.

The new manager should show progress or at the very least the ability to maintain the position we have earned. If he goes backwards then the Barca Boys will be the ones responsible but will no doubt not be the ones under the cosh. they have already shown how ruthless they are.

i still believe that we will progress beyond the group stages and finish Top 3 and no doubt the hierarchy would consider that progress even if some us fans do not. i.e. challenging for the premier League title continues to be the absolute top priority. not the ''champions'' league imo.

 

[Combat Carl]

Mancini didn't fit in with what the Barca boys wanted from a manager. They don't like Mourinho's style either, they prefer longevity and consistency so that the manager essentially over sees a product that is already set up to succeed. Mourinho has a 2-3 year life at a club, it is after this time that he starts to upset the settled core of his sides and generally has to move on. He is also a self centred individual that want to succeed for his ego rather than for the good of a team or his players. Aside from his win with Porto in the Champions League he has always gone to clubs where large sums have been spent and he continues to spend huge sums of money. Mancini was similar, he was also sacked from Inter based on Champions League form and Mourinho went and won it the following year. I believe that last season Mancini altered things too much in Europe, he tried too hard because he is more than aware he has a poor reputation in Europe and it will continue to nag at him.

The Barca boys talk about a holistic approach to things and whilst that has become a buzz word what I feel they mean is that the clubs goals and ambitions are filtered through the first team and down. So that the young kids coming through know the clubs goals and learn the basic, technique and movement and they are ready made to play in the first team. They can still mould to a change of formation but will play football the correct way. To oversee that they needed a manager that could provide stability and ensure that young players felt mentored. They chose Pellegrini based on his achievements in the Champions league and "success" both at smaller sides and with Real, which was their record points haul. They saw him close up when they were over seeing Guardiola at Barca and one of the greatest club sides in history. They clearly respected him.

Anyway coming away from all that long term talk and football philosophy, looking at Pellegrini so far is a mixed bag. We had a great first win of the season but followed it up with three poor performances albeit a loss, win and draw. 7 points from those games still puts us right in the mix and aside from Cardiff result I think we can be happy with that so far. We have had injury issues and there will be a few months until we gel. This week provides the ultimate test. An away game we should win and the derby where we will see how motivated the players are and will get an insight into how Pellegrini will perform. I do wonder why people think he is the wrong person now, he is proven as a great manager and he will come good. After ten games we will get a better picture on both domestic and european fronts and then we will know where we are at in terms of progress. I have full faith in him coming good and in terms of time, well I will give him as long as the Barca boys do because I agree with their methodology and I like their approach to producing players through the academy and learning the basics so they are complete footballers.

Appointing Guardiola at Barcelona was the best decision they've ever made but they can hardly take credit for Messi, Xavi and Iniesta or the Cruyff system.