Discussion: Manuel Pellegrini 2014/15 (continued)

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Shaelumstash said:
Dribble said:
Shaelumstash said:
The worrying thing is, even if Pellegrini wanted to be more solid, drop the line deeper and get us back to basics of being hard to beat, the Directors above him won't allow it!

It's all part of our ingenious holistic philosophy that every team in the "City family" play high line, possession based, attacking football. Forget that our captain and former player of the season Zabaleta's form has dived off a cliff, we can't protect them and become more solid, because it's not good for brand synergy, you see.

If the loyal fans in Melbourne, New York and Yokohama see Manchester City playing a solid defensive line as they did under the previous manager, they might start thinking the whole City Group concept is crazy, they play a high line, so we aaaaaall play a high line. Football principles, concepts, philosophies, brand synergies, that's more important than winning games and trophies now.

English football has found it hard to adjust to a model where directors identify and buy players. Just when we're turning the corner on that, City go nuclear and actually allow the suits in the office to dictate the style of play and tactics!! Only at City could this happen.

I bet Fergurson, Louis Long Ball and Mourinho are secretly pissing themselves at the concept! Imagine Bruce Buck telling Mourinho "Look Jose, you're going to have to play a high line from now on, I don't care if it doesn't suit John Terry's game, we've got a marketing strategy in the far east that relies on us telling our opponents what tactics we're playing before the game."

Imagine Woodwood telling Van Gaal "Yeh sorry Louis, but our womens team play balls to feet so you're going to have to stop playing that diagonal ball to Fellaini because the fans of the women's team might not recognise both United's as being part of the same brand."

As I've said before, the concept itself is completely flawed. If you're Barcelona with a budget 10 times as big as 3rd biggest team in your league, play the same way every week, fuck all those shit teams. If you're playing in the PL that concept is flawed in itself.

I don't want to skate over the issue that Pellegrini is appalling, but the point I'm making is, our footballing strategy as a club is actually making it even more difficult for him.
I played in a very successful team who adopted a high line, but the difference was that 3 of the 4 defenders plus the keeper would give Usain Bolt a tuff time over 50 metres so we were very rarely, if ever caught out.

Personally I have no problem per se with having a CFA philosophy, but where it makes no sense is that Txiki also mentioned us playing a 433 formation which suits the personnel we have better whilst MP immediately switched us to a 442. I think the fact we play a formation that we don't have the players for added to the fact that we are constantly trying to force square pegs into round holes has more bearing of where we are now than playing a high line.

The high line leaves us exposed because with Yaya in a midfield 2, our central defenders get no protection, whereas in seasons past there would be Barry or NDJ sat right in front of them. These are elementary things and if MP wants to know how to fix them, all he has to do is look at the videos of our first title winning season because the core of that team is still the core of this team.

Just because we were hard to beat, didn't mean I didn't enjoy our football previously, far from it. The thing I enjoyed most was the fact other teams scoring against us was the exception rather than the rule which is no longer the case. It took 4 years to build that mentality and toughness and a season to erode it.

Great teams are built on great defences, the question is though, during his final season can The Engineer reconstruct the defensive solidity he demolished in his first season? I think its a queston that needs serious consideration as I don't think its a given that he'll be replaced any time soon as our current crisis and our failed transfer policy since 2012 will reflect on those directly above MP.

Totally agree with you on the square pegs, round hole thing. Totally agree on the fact 442 is not suited to playing such a high line, as to play so high you need lots of pressure on the ball from midfield, and we simply don't/ can't do that. I also agree that you need rapid defenders to play a high line effectively.

I also agree that just because we played deeper under Mancini, doesn't mean it wasn't attractive, attacking football. We still dominated most games, we just had a more sound base to start from and our goalkeeper and defenders were the best in the league. The same players are now a shambles. Have they all "downed tools" or are they not comfortable in the system?

One are I'd question is that you appear to be suggesting Pellegrini playing 442 is the major issue, not the high line. I'd disagree with that. We played a variation of 442 under Mancini and we had the best defence in the league 3 years running. The difference was we were 10 yards deeper and not so exposed.
You're correct in that Mancini did play a variation of 442, but I think think that is more to do with football being inherently fluid. How many times did NDJ or Barry seriously venture forward? From what I recall one of them was always within spitting distance of Kompany/Lescott so protection was always afforded to them.

Tevez always dropped deeper if playing with another striker & Balotelli always played from the left unless played as a target man like against ManUre in the FA Cup semi and Stoke in the final. I've just looked back at a couple of matches from the 2012 season and tbh I can barely tell the difference in the defensive line then to the one we adopt now. What I will say is very evident is that we always put our defensive duties first and built from there and that is where I agree with you.

Mancini's philosophy was defend first and our world class forwards will ultimately score. Pellegrini's philosophy seems to be, we'll score more than you will and I hope our world class defenders will take care of themselves which is naive Keegan-esque madness in todays world of OPTA stats and video analysis. When our full backs go missing in action and all our average opposition had to do is hit long balls into the empty channels, we became as predictable as night following day. That is the problem with MP's version of 442.

In those early 2012 matches, we were seriously good, fluid & dare I say that team was probably the most complete City team ever. How on God's earth have we gone from that to this with essentially the same players, is beyond me?
 
Opta:

Manuel Pellegrini is the first Man City manager to lose four PL away games in a row since Stuart Pearce in 2006. Homesick.
 
Happy Feet said:
allan harper said:
The club are happy for the manager and players to coast along until then end of the season, while the fans have paid/are paying good money to watch them.

Get him fucked off now, don't wait till the summer.
He will be laying out the "tactics" for the West Ham game

Tactics Team Talk:

Plan A: 4-4-2 and we are sure to win cos we are better than them
Plan B: Oh shit, we're losing - better put Lampard on for 15 mins

At least Manuel got excited enough to actually stand up in the technical area at the swamp - more than he managed in 90 minutes at Turf Moor.
 
The question that should be asked when deciding Pellegrini's future in the boardrooms of City HQ (in abu dhabi or wherever they take place to review the season) is does Pellegrini have the solutions to fix the problems we face? and you listen to his interviews and have to say no he doesn't. Nice guy but not the man to move us forward.
 
Looks like he will be staying for now. Hopefully he can turn around and win the next two games. Its a must win for the club.
On a side note the Eplayer ad on the top right of the forum about United being happy and the score is really doing my head in, hopefully mods can change it.
 
Dribble said:
Shaelumstash said:
Dribble said:
I played in a very successful team who adopted a high line, but the difference was that 3 of the 4 defenders plus the keeper would give Usain Bolt a tuff time over 50 metres so we were very rarely, if ever caught out.

Personally I have no problem per se with having a CFA philosophy, but where it makes no sense is that Txiki also mentioned us playing a 433 formation which suits the personnel we have better whilst MP immediately switched us to a 442. I think the fact we play a formation that we don't have the players for added to the fact that we are constantly trying to force square pegs into round holes has more bearing of where we are now than playing a high line.

The high line leaves us exposed because with Yaya in a midfield 2, our central defenders get no protection, whereas in seasons past there would be Barry or NDJ sat right in front of them. These are elementary things and if MP wants to know how to fix them, all he has to do is look at the videos of our first title winning season because the core of that team is still the core of this team.

Just because we were hard to beat, didn't mean I didn't enjoy our football previously, far from it. The thing I enjoyed most was the fact other teams scoring against us was the exception rather than the rule which is no longer the case. It took 4 years to build that mentality and toughness and a season to erode it.

Great teams are built on great defences, the question is though, during his final season can The Engineer reconstruct the defensive solidity he demolished in his first season? I think its a queston that needs serious consideration as I don't think its a given that he'll be replaced any time soon as our current crisis and our failed transfer policy since 2012 will reflect on those directly above MP.

Totally agree with you on the square pegs, round hole thing. Totally agree on the fact 442 is not suited to playing such a high line, as to play so high you need lots of pressure on the ball from midfield, and we simply don't/ can't do that. I also agree that you need rapid defenders to play a high line effectively.

I also agree that just because we played deeper under Mancini, doesn't mean it wasn't attractive, attacking football. We still dominated most games, we just had a more sound base to start from and our goalkeeper and defenders were the best in the league. The same players are now a shambles. Have they all "downed tools" or are they not comfortable in the system?

One are I'd question is that you appear to be suggesting Pellegrini playing 442 is the major issue, not the high line. I'd disagree with that. We played a variation of 442 under Mancini and we had the best defence in the league 3 years running. The difference was we were 10 yards deeper and not so exposed.
You're correct in that Mancini did play a variation of 442, but I think think that is more to do with football being inherently fluid. How many times did NDJ or Barry seriously venture forward? From what I recall one of them was always within spitting distance of Kompany/Lescott so protection was always afforded to them.

Tevez always dropped deeper if playing with another striker & Balotelli always played from the left unless played as a target man like against ManUre in the FA Cup semi and Stoke in the final. I've just looked back at a couple of matches from the 2012 season and tbh I can barely tell the difference in the defensive line then to the one we adopt now. What I will say is very evident is that we always put our defensive duties first and built from there and that is where I agree with you.

Mancini's philosophy was defend first and our world class forwards will ultimately score. Pellegrini's philosophy seems to be, we'll score more than you will and I hope our world class defenders will take care of themselves which is naive Keegan-esque madness in todays world of OPTA stats and video analysis. When our full backs go missing in action and all our average opposition had to do is hit long balls into the empty channels, we became as predictable as night following day. That is the problem with MP's version of 442.

In those early 2012 matches, we were seriously good, fluid & dare I say that team was probably the most complete City team ever. How on God's earth have we gone from that to this with essentially the same players, is beyond me?

Just about sums it up, its an absolute disgrace what this squad has become and somebody ultimately is responsible, defensive wise we are an absolute shambles, as you say, we had the best defence for three seasons running before this idiot turned up.

Keegan-esque sums it up perfectly.
 
kupest said:
Looks like he will be staying for now. Hopefully he can turn around and win the next two games. Its a must win for the club.
On a side note the Eplayer ad on the top right of the forum about United being happy and the score is really doing my head in, hopefully mods can change it.

Pm one of the mods and they will tell Ric
 
flb said:
Dribble said:
Shaelumstash said:
Totally agree with you on the square pegs, round hole thing. Totally agree on the fact 442 is not suited to playing such a high line, as to play so high you need lots of pressure on the ball from midfield, and we simply don't/ can't do that. I also agree that you need rapid defenders to play a high line effectively.

I also agree that just because we played deeper under Mancini, doesn't mean it wasn't attractive, attacking football. We still dominated most games, we just had a more sound base to start from and our goalkeeper and defenders were the best in the league. The same players are now a shambles. Have they all "downed tools" or are they not comfortable in the system?

One are I'd question is that you appear to be suggesting Pellegrini playing 442 is the major issue, not the high line. I'd disagree with that. We played a variation of 442 under Mancini and we had the best defence in the league 3 years running. The difference was we were 10 yards deeper and not so exposed.
You're correct in that Mancini did play a variation of 442, but I think think that is more to do with football being inherently fluid. How many times did NDJ or Barry seriously venture forward? From what I recall one of them was always within spitting distance of Kompany/Lescott so protection was always afforded to them.

Tevez always dropped deeper if playing with another striker & Balotelli always played from the left unless played as a target man like against ManUre in the FA Cup semi and Stoke in the final. I've just looked back at a couple of matches from the 2012 season and tbh I can barely tell the difference in the defensive line then to the one we adopt now. What I will say is very evident is that we always put our defensive duties first and built from there and that is where I agree with you.

Mancini's philosophy was defend first and our world class forwards will ultimately score. Pellegrini's philosophy seems to be, we'll score more than you will and I hope our world class defenders will take care of themselves which is naive Keegan-esque madness in todays world of OPTA stats and video analysis. When our full backs go missing in action and all our average opposition had to do is hit long balls into the empty channels, we became as predictable as night following day. That is the problem with MP's version of 442.

In those early 2012 matches, we were seriously good, fluid & dare I say that team was probably the most complete City team ever. How on God's earth have we gone from that to this with essentially the same players, is beyond me?

Just about sums it up, its an absolute disgrace what this squad has become and somebody ultimately is responsible, defensive wise we are an absolute shambles, as you say, we had the best defence for three seasons running before this idiot turned up.

Keegan-esque sums it up perfectly.
Don't knock Keegan .
Even he got a backs to the wall draw at Old Turdfford , 10 years ago .
Even Keegan could get a draw for us .
 
baildon blue said:
flb said:
Dribble said:
You're correct in that Mancini did play a variation of 442, but I think think that is more to do with football being inherently fluid. How many times did NDJ or Barry seriously venture forward? From what I recall one of them was always within spitting distance of Kompany/Lescott so protection was always afforded to them.

Tevez always dropped deeper if playing with another striker & Balotelli always played from the left unless played as a target man like against ManUre in the FA Cup semi and Stoke in the final. I've just looked back at a couple of matches from the 2012 season and tbh I can barely tell the difference in the defensive line then to the one we adopt now. What I will say is very evident is that we always put our defensive duties first and built from there and that is where I agree with you.

Mancini's philosophy was defend first and our world class forwards will ultimately score. Pellegrini's philosophy seems to be, we'll score more than you will and I hope our world class defenders will take care of themselves which is naive Keegan-esque madness in todays world of OPTA stats and video analysis. When our full backs go missing in action and all our average opposition had to do is hit long balls into the empty channels, we became as predictable as night following day. That is the problem with MP's version of 442.

In those early 2012 matches, we were seriously good, fluid & dare I say that team was probably the most complete City team ever. How on God's earth have we gone from that to this with essentially the same players, is beyond me?

Just about sums it up, its an absolute disgrace what this squad has become and somebody ultimately is responsible, defensive wise we are an absolute shambles, as you say, we had the best defence for three seasons running before this idiot turned up.

Keegan-esque sums it up perfectly.
Don't knock Keegan .
Even he got a backs to the wall draw at Old Turdfford , 10 years ago .
Even Keegan could get a draw for us .


He was a charlatan nothing more nothing less
 
baildon blue said:
flb said:
Dribble said:
You're correct in that Mancini did play a variation of 442, but I think think that is more to do with football being inherently fluid. How many times did NDJ or Barry seriously venture forward? From what I recall one of them was always within spitting distance of Kompany/Lescott so protection was always afforded to them.

Tevez always dropped deeper if playing with another striker & Balotelli always played from the left unless played as a target man like against ManUre in the FA Cup semi and Stoke in the final. I've just looked back at a couple of matches from the 2012 season and tbh I can barely tell the difference in the defensive line then to the one we adopt now. What I will say is very evident is that we always put our defensive duties first and built from there and that is where I agree with you.

Mancini's philosophy was defend first and our world class forwards will ultimately score. Pellegrini's philosophy seems to be, we'll score more than you will and I hope our world class defenders will take care of themselves which is naive Keegan-esque madness in todays world of OPTA stats and video analysis. When our full backs go missing in action and all our average opposition had to do is hit long balls into the empty channels, we became as predictable as night following day. That is the problem with MP's version of 442.

In those early 2012 matches, we were seriously good, fluid & dare I say that team was probably the most complete City team ever. How on God's earth have we gone from that to this with essentially the same players, is beyond me?

Just about sums it up, its an absolute disgrace what this squad has become and somebody ultimately is responsible, defensive wise we are an absolute shambles, as you say, we had the best defence for three seasons running before this idiot turned up.

Keegan-esque sums it up perfectly.
Don't knock Keegan .
Even he got a backs to the wall draw at Old Turdfford , 10 years ago .
Even Keegan could get a draw for us .

He was also man enough to recoginse when he wasn't up to the job and do the honourable thing & walk away from it.
 
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