Discussion: Manuel Pellegrini 2014/15 (continued)

[halfcenturyup]

It's hilarious.

I can't even see the logic here - so they are Barca fans thus must always want to be at Barca no matter what?

Despite that fact that two of them aren't Barca fans but yeah

Help us with the logic in this one then? Begiristain is the Messi of DoFs. Pellegrini reports to Begiristain., Yet Pellegrini is following a youth policy that is not in the best interests of the club, and Begiristain has done nothing about it? I really can't see how you can reconcile those views.

Even Damo is not infallible. I'm sure one of his earlier posts had Txiki down as Catalan but I'm pretty sure he is Basque.

Well yes, no-one is infallible, which is rather the point of this whole tiresome discussion about management.

 

[Damocles]

Marcos Lopes couldn't get a game under Pellegrini. Played every possible game for Lille. Rekik couldn't get a game, won the title at PSV. Denayer couldn't get a game, won the title at Celtic. Yet apparently Middlesbrough is too tough a fixture for them. Despite the fact that our players who aren't making it and will never play for City are getting loaned to the same division as Boro and beating them.

I'm not sure of the relevance of this sentence to the discussion on MP. None of those three could play against Middlesbrough, because they weren't here to do so, and they weren't here for the very reason that City (Txiki, not MP) wanted them to get experience of playing regularly at a higher level than the EDS in a competitive league. Surely this is better for their development, than waiting until the 3rd or 4th round of the LC, FAC, to get a game for City (or even the odd sub appearance in league games).

It would appear that they have indeed improved with this experience, so the MCFC (Txiki not MP) policy is a good one. Now, whether they come back good enough to become first team squad members, or move on is another debate.

Also the current EDS getting into the first team is a different debate, given that many of them are 18 or under, and in many cases they don't yet look physically ready for the PL challenge. The game on Sunday certainly wasn't one to throw them into imho, it could do more harm than good at this stage of their development, Southampton were a good and strong side, with something to play for, and our first team only just beat them with a good performance.

It's reverse logic though. They are out on loan because of the lack of first team opportunities rather than the lack of first team time being because they are on loan. Marcos Lopes was here last season and showed against West Ham that he could be a very useful member of our squad when he started the game and won Man of the Match. That should have been the time then to give him more minutes. Pellegrini played him one game after where he struggled a bit so dropped him and never played him again for the rest of the season, he didn't even get on the bench most of the time.

We play 50-60 games a season, kids like Lopes could easily get 10-15 games a season here with the right group of players, in a team that attempts to play football, and training with some of the best people in the world. Instead he's in France and getting the shit kicked out of him as one of only two creative outlets for a team mainly of plodders. 20 appearances for Lille is nothing compared to the 15 he could get here, in our system and learning our styles of play, our attacking movements and that of the players around him, developing an understanding with Sergio and watching David Silva every day.

 

[Damocles]

Help us with the logic in this one then? Begiristain is the Messi of DoFs. Pellegrini reports to Begiristain., Yet Pellegrini is following a youth policy that is not in the best interests of the club, and Begiristain has done nothing about it? I really can't see how you can reconcile those views.

Because there were arguments on it last season regarding whether the complaints were legitimate or just Pellegrini being a victim of circumstance surrounding fitness or first team concerns. There is no argument on that at all after his decisions this year, and have no doubt at all that Txiki will either set him strong quotas this year whilst waiting for Pep or will get shot of him.

This isn't a decision that I've just decided on the spot, it has been a gradual noticing of a trend over several years where more and more and more evidence has built up pointing to the conclusion that he isn't going to play them off his own back.

 

[BobKowalski]

So I assume the favoured theory/scenario on here currently is that we are keeping Pellers on for another year with Pep in 2016?

 

[Healdplace]

So I assume the favoured theory/scenario on here currently is that we are keeping Pellers on for another year with Pep in 2016?

I don't have a problem with that as it looks like the club sat down with him and the players a month or so back and identified two things that needed to be done. A change of tactics to more flexibility by Pelle and certain players who seemed unable/unwilling to play to their best under Pelle not playing as much.

The result - whilst not an unqualified success - has been a big improvement on what now looks like a blip earlier this year. That seems enough to justify Pelle getting another chance on the assumption that their only apparent real choice for a successor is not coming until June 2016 at the earliest.

My only slight concern is that Bayern could sit by and let the Summer go and then announce a new three year deal for Pep just as or after the next season starts - maximum point of impact against us - and so immediately putting pressure on City and Pelle.

With the inevitable media reaction that City will have to limp on after being 'snubbed' etc etc and how we may even have lost other opportunities to relaunch the project based on the absolute conviction Pep would not sign a new deal.

On the other hand Pelle is a decent manager and with the right squad and any possible agitators gone he could win things in 2015-16 making people ask if we even need Pep at all.

So I can see why we have taken this decision if that is what we have done. It is not the horrendous gamble the media will likely try to make out it will be. Whereas had we sacked Pelle we would have been accused of dumping on a good man in a hasty reaction.

Therefore we do what is best for us and sod the inevitable hate press.

 

[PragueBlue]

Marcos Lopes couldn't get a game under Pellegrini. Played every possible game for Lille. Rekik couldn't get a game, won the title at PSV. Denayer couldn't get a game, won the title at Celtic. Yet apparently Middlesbrough is too tough a fixture for them. Despite the fact that our players who aren't making it and will never play for City are getting loaned to the same division as Boro and beating them.

I'm not sure of the relevance of this sentence to the discussion on MP. None of those three could play against Middlesbrough, because they weren't here to do so, and they weren't here for the very reason that City (Txiki, not MP) wanted them to get experience of playing regularly at a higher level than the EDS in a competitive league. Surely this is better for their development, than waiting until the 3rd or 4th round of the LC, FAC, to get a game for City (or even the odd sub appearance in league games).

It would appear that they have indeed improved with this experience, so the MCFC (Txiki not MP) policy is a good one. Now, whether they come back good enough to become first team squad members, or move on is another debate.

Also the current EDS getting into the first team is a different debate, given that many of them are 18 or under, and in many cases they don't yet look physically ready for the PL challenge. The game on Sunday certainly wasn't one to throw them into imho, it could do more harm than good at this stage of their development, Southampton were a good and strong side, with something to play for, and our first team only just beat them with a good performance.

It's reverse logic though. They are out on loan because of the lack of first team opportunities rather than the lack of first team time being because they are on loan. Marcos Lopes was here last season and showed against West Ham that he could be a very useful member of our squad when he started the game and won Man of the Match. That should have been the time then to give him more minutes. Pellegrini played him one game after where he struggled a bit so dropped him and never played him again for the rest of the season, he didn't even get on the bench most of the time.

We play 50-60 games a season, kids like Lopes could easily get 10-15 games a season here with the right group of players, in a team that attempts to play football, and training with some of the best people in the world. Instead he's in France and getting the shit kicked out of him as one of only two creative outlets for a team mainly of plodders. 20 appearances for Lille is nothing compared to the 15 he could get here, in our system and learning our styles of play, our attacking movements and that of the players around him, developing an understanding with Sergio and watching David Silva every day.

I assume that those at the club responsible felt that those players would get more useful game time on loan than with us. Boyata has hardly played and he would have been in line in front of Denayer. Pellegrini also had to keep our squad players happy so I doubt Lopes, Denayer and Rekik would have had more games than they have had out on loan.

I'm sure if they are deemed good enough, they will be in the first team squad for next season, while some of the EDS lads go out on loan to see what they are made of. Seems a sensible way of doing things to me unless we feel that we have an exceptional talent on our hands who is ready to make the step up straight from the EDS to the first team squad.

 

[halfcenturyup]

Help us with the logic in this one then? Begiristain is the Messi of DoFs. Pellegrini reports to Begiristain., Yet Pellegrini is following a youth policy that is not in the best interests of the club, and Begiristain has done nothing about it? I really can't see how you can reconcile those views.

Because there were arguments on it last season regarding whether the complaints were legitimate or just Pellegrini being a victim of circumstance surrounding fitness or first team concerns. There is no argument on that at all after his decisions this year, and have no doubt at all that Txiki will either set him strong quotas this year whilst waiting for Pep or will get shot of him.

This isn't a decision that I've just decided on the spot, it has been a gradual noticing of a trend over several years where more and more and more evidence has built up pointing to the conclusion that he isn't going to play them off his own back.

:)

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Marcos Lopes couldn't get a game under Pellegrini. Played every possible game for Lille. Rekik couldn't get a game, won the title at PSV. Denayer couldn't get a game, won the title at Celtic. Yet apparently Middlesbrough is too tough a fixture for them. Despite the fact that our players who aren't making it and will never play for City are getting loaned to the same division as Boro and beating them.

I'm not sure of the relevance of this sentence to the discussion on MP. None of those three could play against Middlesbrough, because they weren't here to do so, and they weren't here for the very reason that City (Txiki, not MP) wanted them to get experience of playing regularly at a higher level than the EDS in a competitive league. Surely this is better for their development, than waiting until the 3rd or 4th round of the LC, FAC, to get a game for City (or even the odd sub appearance in league games).

It would appear that they have indeed improved with this experience, so the MCFC (Txiki not MP) policy is a good one. Now, whether they come back good enough to become first team squad members, or move on is another debate.

Also the current EDS getting into the first team is a different debate, given that many of them are 18 or under, and in many cases they don't yet look physically ready for the PL challenge. The game on Sunday certainly wasn't one to throw them into imho, it could do more harm than good at this stage of their development, Southampton were a good and strong side, with something to play for, and our first team only just beat them with a good performance.

It's reverse logic though. They are out on loan because of the lack of first team opportunities rather than the lack of first team time being because they are on loan. Marcos Lopes was here last season and showed against West Ham that he could be a very useful member of our squad when he started the game and won Man of the Match. That should have been the time then to give him more minutes. Pellegrini played him one game after where he struggled a bit so dropped him and never played him again for the rest of the season, he didn't even get on the bench most of the time.

We play 50-60 games a season, kids like Lopes could easily get 10-15 games a season here with the right group of players, in a team that attempts to play football, and training with some of the best people in the world. Instead he's in France and getting the shit kicked out of him as one of only two creative outlets for a team mainly of plodders. 20 appearances for Lille is nothing compared to the 15 he could get here, in our system and learning our styles of play, our attacking movements and that of the players around him, developing an understanding with Sergio and watching David Silva every day.

Maybe, alternatively, him having to go out, toughen up and learn how to use his technical skill effectively in match situations with players less gifted, and thus take on that responsibility, could mean he comes back a much more-rounded player and understand how top players use their skills effectively and thus be able to learn a lot more from the likes of Silva and Aguero. Equally with Denayer, whose loan by all accounts has been a roaring success.

The players currently at the club and not on loan have demonstrated in the Youth Cup and U21 derby a few weeks ago, amongst other occassions, that they're not ready to step up to the first team yet. The arguments of those on loan is one thing, and we'll not really know either way who's right.

However, I will say that I think it is LESS likely that Pelle would start putting kids in in the run-in, because he wants to save face after a poor season and if he brings a kid in who hits the ground running, then everyone will turn on him saying "oh look, you should have given him a chance before, it's too late now, numpty", so he's going to protect his position by playing the same players and sending the message "this is all I've got to work with, it's not my fault".

So on the point about Pelle being overly stubborn about it, I kind of agree, but I also think the loans have had strong positives and that there's no-one in the EDS or U18 squad this season who's screamed to me "Give me a go, I'm ready for this".

 

[Damocles]

I'm not sure of the relevance of this sentence to the discussion on MP. None of those three could play against Middlesbrough, because they weren't here to do so, and they weren't here for the very reason that City (Txiki, not MP) wanted them to get experience of playing regularly at a higher level than the EDS in a competitive league. Surely this is better for their development, than waiting until the 3rd or 4th round of the LC, FAC, to get a game for City (or even the odd sub appearance in league games).

It would appear that they have indeed improved with this experience, so the MCFC (Txiki not MP) policy is a good one. Now, whether they come back good enough to become first team squad members, or move on is another debate.

Also the current EDS getting into the first team is a different debate, given that many of them are 18 or under, and in many cases they don't yet look physically ready for the PL challenge. The game on Sunday certainly wasn't one to throw them into imho, it could do more harm than good at this stage of their development, Southampton were a good and strong side, with something to play for, and our first team only just beat them with a good performance.

It's reverse logic though. They are out on loan because of the lack of first team opportunities rather than the lack of first team time being because they are on loan. Marcos Lopes was here last season and showed against West Ham that he could be a very useful member of our squad when he started the game and won Man of the Match. That should have been the time then to give him more minutes. Pellegrini played him one game after where he struggled a bit so dropped him and never played him again for the rest of the season, he didn't even get on the bench most of the time.

We play 50-60 games a season, kids like Lopes could easily get 10-15 games a season here with the right group of players, in a team that attempts to play football, and training with some of the best people in the world. Instead he's in France and getting the shit kicked out of him as one of only two creative outlets for a team mainly of plodders. 20 appearances for Lille is nothing compared to the 15 he could get here, in our system and learning our styles of play, our attacking movements and that of the players around him, developing an understanding with Sergio and watching David Silva every day.

I assume that those at the club responsible felt that those players would get more useful game time on loan than with us. Boyata has hardly played and he would have been in line in front of Denayer. Pellegrini also had to keep our squad players happy so I doubt Lopes, Denayer and Rekik would have had more games than they have had out on loan.

I'm sure if they are deemed good enough, they will be in the first team squad for next season, while some of the EDS lads go out on loan to see what they are made of. Seems a sensible way of doing things to me unless we feel that we have an exceptional talent on our hands who is ready to make the step up straight from the EDS to the first team squad.

I agree - this is what I'm saying the problem is. Pellegrini isn't playing them so they have no choice but to loan them out rather than put the future of our club in his hands and expect him to understand the responsibility.

 

[cleavers]

Marcos Lopes couldn't get a game under Pellegrini. Played every possible game for Lille. Rekik couldn't get a game, won the title at PSV. Denayer couldn't get a game, won the title at Celtic. Yet apparently Middlesbrough is too tough a fixture for them. Despite the fact that our players who aren't making it and will never play for City are getting loaned to the same division as Boro and beating them.

I'm not sure of the relevance of this sentence to the discussion on MP. None of those three could play against Middlesbrough, because they weren't here to do so, and they weren't here for the very reason that City (Txiki, not MP) wanted them to get experience of playing regularly at a higher level than the EDS in a competitive league. Surely this is better for their development, than waiting until the 3rd or 4th round of the LC, FAC, to get a game for City (or even the odd sub appearance in league games).

It would appear that they have indeed improved with this experience, so the MCFC (Txiki not MP) policy is a good one. Now, whether they come back good enough to become first team squad members, or move on is another debate.

Also the current EDS getting into the first team is a different debate, given that many of them are 18 or under, and in many cases they don't yet look physically ready for the PL challenge. The game on Sunday certainly wasn't one to throw them into imho, it could do more harm than good at this stage of their development, Southampton were a good and strong side, with something to play for, and our first team only just beat them with a good performance.

It's reverse logic though. They are out on loan because of the lack of first team opportunities rather than the lack of first team time being because they are on loan. Marcos Lopes was here last season and showed against West Ham that he could be a very useful member of our squad when he started the game and won Man of the Match. That should have been the time then to give him more minutes. Pellegrini played him one game after where he struggled a bit so dropped him and never played him again for the rest of the season, he didn't even get on the bench most of the time.

We play 50-60 games a season, kids like Lopes could easily get 10-15 games a season here with the right group of players, in a team that attempts to play football, and training with some of the best people in the world. Instead he's in France and getting the shit kicked out of him as one of only two creative outlets for a team mainly of plodders. 20 appearances for Lille is nothing compared to the 15 he could get here, in our system and learning our styles of play, our attacking movements and that of the players around him, developing an understanding with Sergio and watching David Silva every day.

No I understand that, and didn't know he'd that little game time over there (better than Zuculini in Spain, which has been a complete waste of time), but the other two have had far more game time, and that will be of bigger benefit.

I doubt its just down to MP, as Txiki must be involved to some degree, and if he felt that MP wasn't acting in the clubs best interests with the younger players he wouldn't be here.

On that I think we all want the same thing, but just differ on how best to achieve it, I think loans are a good way to help development, as I also think playing U18's in the U21 squad is, and I think eventually we'll benefit from it all much more.