Discussion: Manuel Pellegrini 2015/16

[Ric]

It is made up over a period of time, there is alternatives but we are discussing pellegrini here so unless you are saying pellegrini should stay because there is literally no other manager out there which doesn't say much for pellegrini, the monk pardewstatement was that I believe managers of that current standing could do a similar job to pellegrini with the players we have, I have never stated they are pep guardiola in waiting

I'm certainly not saying Pellegrini should stay because "there is literally no other manager out there". I'm saying that, despite his faults, he's doing a reasonably good job. Clearly succession planning is in place, and hopefully that will result in Guardiola ultimately getting the job.

What I am saying is that it's pointless saying that Monk or Pardew could do just as good a job because it's never going to happen. Nor do I think they could, for what it's worth.

Regardless of who we appoint as his successor, would you still argue that finishing first and second in their first two seasons was unacceptable? If so then the new manager is on a hiding to nothing with you.

 

[Shaelumstash]

I'm not sure those situations are comparable. It still seems absurd that United were willing to let the outgoing manager solely choose his successor, but I guess it's testament to the power he wielded at Old Trafford. I like to think our succession planning is a bit more considered though.

Still, it's all subjective. Yourself and hilts either don't like or rate Pellegrini, so it's probably futile carrying on the argument. Even if he wins the league this season it will be because of the players.

For what it's worth, I think he has made mistakes, and certainly isn't infallible but when names like Monk and Pardew are thrown into the mix it's probably easier to agree to disagree.

I agree with you 100% on the succession planning issue. But that's not really what we're discussing is it?

You made the point that Txiki and Ferran are more qualified than you or I to appoint a manager. My point was that qualified people can make mistakes too.

Mourinho getting rid of De Bruyne, Txiki buying Fernando, Fergurson getting rid of Stam, Blair invading Iraq, Coca Cola changing their recipe in the 80s, Merril Lynch buying up a load of toxic housing debt in 2008. History is littered with experts making mistakes, that's why laymans like us can debate things on wonderful forums like Bluemoon ;-)

 

[Ric]

I agree with you 100% on the succession planning issue. But that's not really what we're discussing is it?

You made the point that Txiki and Ferran are more qualified than you or I to appoint a manager. My point was that qualified people can make mistakes too.

Mourinho getting rid of De Bruyne, Txiki buying Fernando, Fergurson getting rid of Stam, Blair invading Iraq, Coca Cola changing their recipe in the 80s, Merril Lynch buying up a load of toxic housing debt in 2008. History is littered with experts making mistakes, that's why laymans like us can debate things on wonderful forums like Bluemoon ;-)

Of course, everyone can make mistakes. Maybe I was being a bit churlish with what I said about Begiristain and Soriano. But come on, Monk or Pardew?! That just seems like using extreme examples to make a point.

 

[Ric]

Ric, they will point to Guardiola, who's managed to take Bayern backwards, and not by a little by a lot. Guardiola who continues to display a glaring lack of tactical awareness. Who's team lose to almost any team with players somewhere even close to the players he has. From Porto to Arsenal, anyone playing counter attacking football, with pace will get results against Bayern. Not to mention the two total humbelings they got from Real & Bayern, not long after Bayern destroyed Barcelona.
He's taken a record breaking Bayern team who won the league by 25+ points, a side that achieved 91 points to today's Bayern. He won the league with just 79 points nothing else.
The mighty Pep has taken quadruple winning, point record breaking CL champions. To Bundesliga champions with with 12 less points and just 1 trophy in 2 years.

The sad irony is, Pellegrini fans will be Pep fans, love his attacking style, his gung ho attitude, those that don't like Pellegrini, will hate Pep, and those that watch a lot of European football will simply understand that Pep & Pellegrini are no different.
They are rigid in their style of play and would prefer to lose playing their way than win playing another way.

I asked it on the Pep thread, if Pellegrini managed Bayern's players to the performance and result against Arsenal, what would they say? After 10 minutes I could see Bayern would get caught on the break. Pep couldn't see it, then brought off his centre mids. Terrible management. Yet we laud him.
His management at Bayern has been average at best and Pellegrini would match his achievements comfortably at Bayern.

Pellegrini has won a double. I'd be stunned if he didn't win the league this year, perhaps another trophy to boot. Yet he's against the World's greatest manager. Looks like he's put Jose well in his place.

Someone asked what Pellegrini does well, he wins games. Lots of games. He plays fantastically attractive football. His players seem to love him, the performances seem to back that up.
Does he make mistakes? Yes. That's what happens. Ferguson, the PL's greatest manager threw away a huge lead, lost the league. Guardiola has been bumped by almost any team with the equivilent level of players in the past few years, fuck me even treble winners Barcelons got humped by Guidetti and his crew just 3 weeks ago. Teams lose, teams can look shit.

As a Pellegrini fan, I'll admit he has faults, he makes mistakes. The funny thing is, those that don't rate him, will never give him credit. Facts are, 3 out of our last 4 wins have come on the back of great managerial decissions. Decissions not popular with the fans.

I hope Guardiola comes, he's perfect for our progression, it's a simple fact though. Those who have issues with Manuel will have issues with Pep. As they both present the same frailties.

I'm not sure Guardiola and Pellegrini are as close in style as you suggest, although I guess that time will tell, if indeed he comes to City. I'm still not convinced that will definitely happen, but hope it does. Like you, I think he'd be perfect for our progression.

One key difference between the two, I think, would be that Guardiola would put more faith in our youth players than Pellegrini has.

 

[hilts]

I'm certainly not saying Pellegrini should stay because "there is literally no other manager out there". I'm saying that, despite his faults, he's doing a reasonably good job. Clearly succession planning is in place, and hopefully that will result in Guardiola ultimately getting the job.

What I am saying is that it's pointless saying that Monk or Pardew could do just as good a job because it's never going to happen. Nor do I think they could, for what it's worth.

Regardless of who we appoint as his successor, would you still argue that finishing first and second in their first two seasons was unacceptable? If so then the new manager is on a hiding to nothing with you.

Okay I will answer your question, his first season we won the league when we had the best squad by far, we edged out an average Liverpool team, last year we finished well behind a decent chelsea team, we should at minimum fought then till the end of the season, in Europe over both those seasons we have looked niave and unprepared for a lot of those games, this year the league form has been patchy and 2 out of the 3 European games we have been very poor

For the players we have this does not make him a stand out manager in my opinion, if you could answer me two questions

What do you think we should have achieved in Europe and the league in his tenure

And can I have one good reason why you have come to the conclusion above that say monk couldn't have got similar results as pellegrini, what have you seen in monk that makes you think he is an inferior manager or is it a complete guess

 

[Shaelumstash]

Ric, they will point to Guardiola, who's managed to take Bayern backwards, and not by a little by a lot. Guardiola who continues to display a glaring lack of tactical awareness. Who's team lose to almost any team with players somewhere even close to the players he has. From Porto to Arsenal, anyone playing counter attacking football, with pace will get results against Bayern. Not to mention the two total humbelings they got from Real & Bayern, not long after Bayern destroyed Barcelona.
He's taken a record breaking Bayern team who won the league by 25+ points, a side that achieved 91 points to today's Bayern. He won the league with just 79 points nothing else.
The mighty Pep has taken quadruple winning, point record breaking CL champions. To Bundesliga champions with with 12 less points and just 1 trophy in 2 years.

The sad irony is, Pellegrini fans will be Pep fans, love his attacking style, his gung ho attitude, those that don't like Pellegrini, will hate Pep, and those that watch a lot of European football will simply understand that Pep & Pellegrini are no different.
They are rigid in their style of play and would prefer to lose playing their way than win playing another way.

I asked it on the Pep thread, if Pellegrini managed Bayern's players to the performance and result against Arsenal, what would they say? After 10 minutes I could see Bayern would get caught on the break. Pep couldn't see it, then brought off his centre mids. Terrible management. Yet we laud him.
His management at Bayern has been average at best and Pellegrini would match his achievements comfortably at Bayern.

Pellegrini has won a double. I'd be stunned if he didn't win the league this year, perhaps another trophy to boot. Yet he's against the World's greatest manager. Looks like he's put Jose well in his place.

Someone asked what Pellegrini does well, he wins games. Lots of games. He plays fantastically attractive football. His players seem to love him, the performances seem to back that up.
Does he make mistakes? Yes. That's what happens. Ferguson, the PL's greatest manager threw away a huge lead, lost the league. Guardiola has been bumped by almost any team with the equivilent level of players in the past few years, fuck me even treble winners Barcelons got humped by Guidetti and his crew just 3 weeks ago. Teams lose, teams can look shit.

As a Pellegrini fan, I'll admit he has faults, he makes mistakes. The funny thing is, those that don't rate him, will never give him credit. Facts are, 3 out of our last 4 wins have come on the back of great managerial decissions. Decissions not popular with the fans.

I hope Guardiola comes, he's perfect for our progression, it's a simple fact though. Those who have issues with Manuel will have issues with Pep. As they both present the same frailties.

20 minutes after Bayern lost their first game of the season I posted in the Pep thread "Cue the "Tiki Taka is dead" comments. It's taken two days, but here it is.

For the purpose of balance, Bayern's record in the league this year is played 9, won 9, drawn 0, lost 0, gaols for 29, goals against 4.

The argument that Pellegrini is in any way similar to Guardiiola is so flawed that it verging on absurd that anyone would even try and make the comparison. I outlined all the reasons for that in the Pep thread. The only similarity is that they both like to play attacking football. Other than that they couldn't really be much more different. Thank god.

 

[Ric]

Okay I will answer your question, his first season we won the league when we had the best squad by far, we edged out an average Liverpool team, last year we finished well behind a decent chelsea team, we should at minimum fought then till the end of the season, in Europe over both those seasons we have looked niave and unprepared for a lot of those games, this year the league form has been patchy and 2 out of the 3 European games we have been very poor

For the players we have this does not make him a stand out manager in my opinion, if you could answer me two questions

What do you think we should have achieved in Europe and the league in his tenure

And can I have one good reason why you have come to the conclusion above that say monk couldn't have got similar results as pellegrini, what have you seen in monk that makes you think he is an inferior manager or is it a complete guess

To answer your two questions:

1) I think being drawn in the same group as Bayern Munich both times meant second place was the best we could've hoped for each time. To then get drawn against Barca in the last 16 both times meant elimination at this stage was inevitable. I don't think any other British team, or any manager, would've fared differently. As such, I think Pellegrini's European record is par for the course. To suggest otherwise would be extremely harsh.

In the league, to finish first and second is pretty good. Winning it in your first season in England is very hard to do, and last season we had to contend with FFP restrictions and a resurgent Chelsea who dropped very few points under Mourinho. We can only influence six of those points, but drew both games. It was definitely a disappointing season, but far from a catastrophe as we finished second.

2) As already stated, saying Monk would or wouldn't do a better job is purely subjective as it can't be proved. You have your views, and I have mine.

I feel like we're going round in circles now though, and it's late so we'll just have to agree to disagree. Night.

 

[Dax777]

Okay I will answer your question, his first season we won the league when we had the best squad by far, we edged out an average Liverpool team, last year we finished well behind a decent chelsea team, we should at minimum fought then till the end of the season, in Europe over both those seasons we have looked niave and unprepared for a lot of those games, this year the league form has been patchy and 2 out of the 3 European games we have been very poor

For the players we have this does not make him a stand out manager in my opinion, if you could answer me two questions

What do you think we should have achieved in Europe and the league in his tenure

And can I have one good reason why you have come to the conclusion above that say monk couldn't have got similar results as pellegrini, what have you seen in monk that makes you think he is an inferior manager or is it a complete guess

We also had the best squad by far the year before he arrived and lost the league to an inferior United. So belittling his achievement is all well and good, but we did lose with the best squad the year prior.

To answer your question, we should win the league, 2 cups and at least a semi in the CL. So far he is halfway there. If he wins the league this year and makes it to the Semi finals, he'd go down as one of City's best coaches to date.

 

[cleavers]

Txiki buying Fernando

He might have been average at best last season, but so far this he's looking a very good player, yet again your comment makes me wonder if you've actually watched him.

 

[cleavers]

But come on, Monk or Pardew?! That just seems like using extreme examples to make a point.

There's another phrase you could use....