Electric cars

[crooky]

My EV will beat the crap out of your ICE. My ‘milk float’ is the best accelerating car I have ever driven. Stuff your V8 and diesel.

Not on a 10 lap endurance race around the M25 it won't...

 

[fulabeer]

The costs for running an ev are going to soar in the next few years, the government are going to have to tax the hell out of them to replace the lost fuel duty and road tax from ice cars.

Absolutely will happen. From 2027, all home chargers have to be smart chargers. The smart bit being it is connected to the internet.
This will allow them to see how much electric was used to charge the car. You will then be charged accordingly.
The same will happen with public chargers. The Tax will be built in, or even billed separate as car ID is a thing.
Car ID will also make public charging easier. Just plug into any public charger, and charging will happen. Tesla already do this with Tesla chargers. They are then billed to there prefered account. My Renault EV has this built in and can use Tesla chargers. We are just waiting for Tesla to allow car ID with other brands.

Driving EV's isn't about saving money. It is to stop the dependence on fossil fuels, and influence from countries that produce them. Secondly, the health benefits from reducing inner city pollution is also significant.
I think taxing from electric used is better/simpler than multiple other ideas like pay per mile and tyre emission tax.

 

[fulabeer]

This popped up on Facebook this morning Info

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Absolutely will happen. From 2027, all home chargers have to be smart chargers. The smart bit being it is connected to the internet.
This will allow them to see how much electric was used to charge the car. You will then be charged accordingly.
The same will happen with public chargers. The Tax will be built in, or even billed separate as car ID is a thing.
Car ID will also make public charging easier. Just plug into any public charger, and charging will happen. Tesla already do this with Tesla chargers. They are then billed to there prefered account. My Renault EV has this built in and can use Tesla chargers. We are just waiting for Tesla to allow car ID with other brands.

Driving EV's isn't about saving money. It is to stop the dependence on fossil fuels, and influence from countries that produce them. Secondly, the health benefits from reducing inner city pollution is also significant.
I think taxing from electric used is better/simpler than multiple other ideas like pay per mile and tyre emission tax.

Thanks for the reply. Does that mean that if you have an ev charger in your home before 2027, they can't force you to have a smart charger?

Also electric cars have a worse dependency on raw materials than ICE cars. There are significantly more oil producing countries than countries that supply materials for batteries. The majority of metals and graphite used in batteries probably lies in the hands of about about 3 or 4 major players. And China has hoovered up a significant slice of those, which should be a major concern to every country that isn't closely allied to China.

There are also significant environmental and social concerns over how these metals are mined in many countries especially the DRC. Widespread child labour, slavery and significant environmental damage is happening and occurring, and Chinese and western companies are paying hush money to keep this quiet. This may change but EV vehicles are currently far from "clean and green".

 

[inbetween]

Absolutely will happen. From 2027, all home chargers have to be smart chargers. The smart bit being it is connected to the internet.
This will allow them to see how much electric was used to charge the car. You will then be charged accordingly.
The same will happen with public chargers. The Tax will be built in, or even billed separate as car ID is a thing.
Car ID will also make public charging easier. Just plug into any public charger, and charging will happen. Tesla already do this with Tesla chargers. They are then billed to there prefered account. My Renault EV has this built in and can use Tesla chargers. We are just waiting for Tesla to allow car ID with other brands.

Driving EV's isn't about saving money. It is to stop the dependence on fossil fuels, and influence from countries that produce them. Secondly, the health benefits from reducing inner city pollution is also significant.
I think taxing from electric used is better/simpler than multiple other ideas like pay per mile and tyre emission tax.

The 'smart' chargers are still pretty dumb in terms of technology. I have a 3yr old Hypervolt and it doesn't work with Octopus for example, maybe the newer ones are better. Octopus thankfully have their app which controls everything directly via the car so that just stops the charge once I plugin and sets the schedule to start the cheaper charging overnight so it works great.

I don't think EV's do stop dependence on fossil fuels massively because the energy we produce comes from fossil fuels although that is slowly changing. These arguments aren't needed because EV's are just better. I bought an EV because it's fun to drive, cheap to run and there's no nonsense about servicing etc, I'll never go back to petrol.

If EV's were the dominant car today and somebody invented the petrol car then we'd call them utterly pointless and stupid.

 

[maxwellblue]

My EV will beat the crap out of your ICE. My ‘milk float’ is the best accelerating car I have ever driven. Stuff your V8 and diesel.

haha, I have no doubt it is but it's not all about speed and performance. One of my V8's is about 45 years old and only has about 160bhp. My diesel daily would batter it but that's not what it's about. The sound , the smell, the feel of the car when you sit in it. The history of the marque and the rarity of it being 1 of only 22 cars ever made.

oh and it will take decades for the carbon footprint of your milk float to be anywhere near as low as my classic.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

The 'smart' chargers are still pretty dumb in terms of technology. I have a 3yr old Hypervolt and it doesn't work with Octopus for example, maybe the newer ones are better. Octopus thankfully have their app which controls everything directly via the car so that just stops the charge once I plugin and sets the schedule to start the cheaper charging overnight so it works great.

I don't think EV's do stop dependence on fossil fuels massively because the energy we produce comes from fossil fuels although that is slowly changing. These arguments aren't needed because EV's are just better. I bought an EV because it's fun to drive, cheap to run and there's no nonsense about servicing etc, I'll never go back to petrol.

If EV's were the dominant car today and somebody invented the petrol car then we'd call them utterly pointless and stupid.

I dissagree, ice cars are just much more convenient, and they suit everybody's needs, not just some peoples needs like evs. They currently dont suit mine and the vast majority of car drivers, the numbers speak for themselves, just 10% of new private car sales last year were evs.

 

[fulabeer]

Thanks for the reply. Does that mean that if you have an ev charger in your home before 2027, they can't force you to have a smart charger?

Also electric cars have a worse dependency on raw materials than ICE cars. There are significantly more oil producing countries than countries that supply materials for batteries. The majority of metals and graphite used in batteries probably lies in the hands of about about 3 or 4 major players. And China has hoovered up a significant slice of those, which should be a major concern to every country that isn't closely allied to China.

There are also significant environmental and social concerns over how these metals are mined in many countries especially the DRC. Widespread child labour, slavery and significant environmental damage is happening and occurring, and Chinese and western companies are paying hush money to keep this quiet. This may change but EV vehicles are currently far from "clean and green".

I think it is just any new chargers installed from 2027. It wouldn't surprise me if later they insist older chargers are replaced at some point though. They will probably start a trade in scheme to encourage the take up.
I don't think the tax from home chargers will be straight away anyway. It will be the boiling frog tactic.
They don't want to scare adopters, so they will just promote the benefits like cheaper tariffs and happy hours. Maybe 2030 seems more realistic.

These chargers will also support the reverse charge system (Vehicle to Grid/Home/Load). If you agree/sign up, your car can allow some charge to flow back to the grid to help with peak demand. The reward will be cheaper tariffs.

Battery tech is progressing at a rapid pace. The newest research doesn't use the really bad/scarce minerals at all. I wonder who sponsors all these articles/adverts about Cobalt and rare earth mining? This mining has been going on well before EV's. I assume most people are ok with their mobile phones/laptops having these rare earth minerals, but why not cars? Oil producers aren't going without a fight.

The main battle seems to be either cost or performance. Rare earth wins at the moment performance wise.
Some batteries (LFP) actually have slightly worse range than current tech. The other downside is slightly slower charging during cold weather.
But they are so much cheaper that budget EV's can be a thing. No Cobalt to start with. The other thing with that tech is you can safely charge to 100% all the time as it doesn't affect the battery one way or another. At least one maker has managed to greatly improve the range with a new alignment design, so range will improve to at least current expectations.

Nothing in this world is Clean and Green. It is more to do with "where" the emissions/damage are released.
Most of the emission stuff on cars actually worsens the efficiency and that is assuming it is working at all.
It would be better to make electric in a controlled environment like a power station even if fossil fuels are used.
Having mini power stations driving round pumping out toxic gases where we live and breath is just stupid if there is an alternative.
Maybe some people like pissing in their baths. I prefer to use the toilet and let the local sewerage plants sort it out!
(On good days, i can reach the toilet without getting out of the bath!)

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

I think it is just any new chargers installed from 2027. It wouldn't surprise me if later they insist older chargers are replaced at some point though. They will probably start a trade in scheme to encourage the take up.
I don't think the tax from home chargers will be straight away anyway. It will be the boiling frog tactic.
They don't want to scare adopters, so they will just promote the benefits like cheaper tariffs and happy hours. Maybe 2030 seems more realistic.

These chargers will also support the reverse charge system (Vehicle to Grid/Home/Load). If you agree/sign up, your car can allow some charge to flow back to the grid to help with peak demand. The reward will be cheaper tariffs.

Battery tech is progressing at a rapid pace. The newest research doesn't use the really bad/scarce minerals at all. I wonder who sponsors all these articles/adverts about Cobalt and rare earth mining? This mining has been going on well before EV's. I assume most people are ok with their mobile phones/laptops having these rare earth minerals, but why not cars? Oil producers aren't going without a fight.

The main battle seems to be either cost or performance. Rare earth wins at the moment performance wise.
So some batteries (LFP) actually have slightly worse range than current tech. The other downside is slightly slower charging during cold weather.
But they are so much cheaper that budget EV's can be a thing. No Cobalt to start with. The other thing with that tech is you can safely charge to 100% all the time as it doesn't affect the battery one way or another. At least one maker has managed to greatly improve the range with a new alignment design, so range will improve to at least current expectations.

Nothing in this world is Clean and Green. It is more to do with "where" the emissions/damage are released.
Most of the emission stuff on cars actually worsens the efficiency and that is assuming it is working at all.
It would be better to make electric in a controlled environment like a power station even if fossil fuels are used.
Having mini power stations driving round pumping out toxic gases where we live and breath is just stupid if there is an alternative.
Maybe some people like pissing in their baths. I prefer to use the toilet and let the local sewerage plants sort it out!

I suppose the home charging tax issue is enforcement. How on earth are they going to be able to check how you charge your car. Its impossible.

As regards range, didnt you say yesterday that evs can already do 500miles ?

As far as I can tell most dont do even 400miles. The highest range I can see is for the Merc eqs which claims about 480miles, but in the real world the below is achievable. Am I missing something here, where are the cars that do this range, are they Chinese?

Mercedes-Benz EQS 450+ Review - GreenCarGuide.co.uk

The all-electric Mercedes-Benz EQS 450+ has a driving range of up to 453 miles and it can cover this distance with effortless performance and in supreme comfort.

www.greencarguide.co.uk

Also, this car starts at £100k, so way beyond the reach of 99% of motorists.

The reality is the range of evs is literally miles off ICE cars. Even my V6 diesel Audi can do 600miles easily. Many smaller ICE and hybrid cars can do 700miles easily on a tank.

Eventually I will buy an ev car, so I am following developments and have some interest, but for the majority of motorists like me this will be decision that will be forced on us by the government and not one made by choice.

 

[inbetween]

I dissagree, ice cars are just much more convenient, and they suit everybody's needs, not just some peoples needs like evs. They currently dont suit mine and the vast majority of car drivers, the numbers speak for themselves, just 10% of new private car sales last year were evs.

I don't see what isn't convenient about them? Are you talking about charging up? I would agree if you can't get a home charger then that's a problem. For everything else though I don't see what's more convenient unless you do over 300 miles a day but this isn't representative of the vast majority.

The manufacturers agree because they could technically make EV's with 1000 miles range but they don't because it's pointless as nobody needs it. They could make a petrol car with 1,000 miles range by increasing the size of the fuel tank but why bother when nobody needs to do 1,000 miles?

For everything else EV's are superior, no servicing, easier to drive and the fuel is 95% less expensive. The only problem slowing sales is the cost but that will change. EV's have only been around as a mass produced product for what 10 years? Scaling is the obstacle to cost, increase the scale and the price goes down. Petrol cars meanwhile are never going to get any better or cheaper and they've been around for 100 years.

 

[pirate]

Absolutely will happen. From 2027, all home chargers have to be smart chargers. The smart bit being it is connected to the internet.
This will allow them to see how much electric was used to charge the car. You will then be charged accordingly.
The same will happen with public chargers. The Tax will be built in, or even billed separate as car ID is a thing.
Car ID will also make public charging easier. Just plug into any public charger, and charging will happen. Tesla already do this with Tesla chargers. They are then billed to there prefered account. My Renault EV has this built in and can use Tesla chargers. We are just waiting for Tesla to allow car ID with other brands.

Driving EV's isn't about saving money. It is to stop the dependence on fossil fuels, and influence from countries that produce them. Secondly, the health benefits from reducing inner city pollution is also significant.
I think taxing from electric used is better/simpler than multiple other ideas like pay per mile and tyre emis

Absolutely will happen. From 2027, all home chargers have to be smart chargers. The smart bit being it is connected to the internet.
This will allow them to see how much electric was used to charge the car. You will then be charged accordingly.
The same will happen with public chargers. The Tax will be built in, or even billed separate as car ID is a thing.
Car ID will also make public charging easier. Just plug into any public charger, and charging will happen. Tesla already do this with Tesla chargers. They are then billed to there prefered account. My Renault EV has this built in and can use Tesla chargers. We are just waiting for Tesla to allow car ID with other brands.

Driving EV's isn't abut saving money. It is to stop the dependence on fossil fuels, and influence from countries that produce them. Secondly, the health benefits from reducing inner city pollution is also significant.
I think taxing from electric used is better/simpler than multiple other ideas like pay per mile and tyre emission tax.

while you are correct that from 2027 all New home chargers have to be smart chargers, the rest is delusional bullshit.
Smart chargers serve the same function as smart meters, allowing the national grid to map and then predict usage so the grid can be supplied and balanced more easily.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

I don't see what isn't convenient about them? Are you talking about charging up? I would agree if you can't get a home charger then that's a problem. For everything else though I don't see what's more convenient unless you do over 300 miles a day but this isn't representative of the vast majority.

The manufacturers agree because they could technically make EV's with 1000 miles range but they don't because it's pointless as nobody needs it. They could make a petrol car with 1,000 miles range by increasing the size of the fuel tank but why bother when nobody needs to do 1,000 miles?

For everything else EV's are superior, no servicing, easier to drive and the fuel is 95% less expensive. The only problem slowing sales is the cost but that will change. EV's have only been around as a mass produced product for what 10 years? Scaling is the obstacle to cost, increase the scale and the price goes down. Petrol cars meanwhile are never going to get any better or cheaper and they've been around for 100 years.

Well I drive up to the north east and back and regularly. I can do that easily on one tank of fuel. I can't with an ev. If you dont have a drive , it is really inconvenient to charge. And to be honest when I want to go anywhere, I do it in one go. I dont want to be sitting around waiting for a charger and then spending 40mins charging. I've seen teslas waiting for space to charge at Keele services so please dont tell me people dont have to queue.

And as regards the cost, they are only cheaper if you charge at home, everyone thinks that the costs will soar as the Government replaces the lost fuel and road tax they get from ICEs. That is £32billion a year currently.

Force people into buying them then screw them with the tax rises when the choice of an ICE has been removed is clearly the Government plan.

 

[itsnevereasy]

I suppose the home charging tax issue is enforcement. How on earth are they going to be able to check how you charge your car. Its impossible.

As regards range, didnt you say yesterday that evs can already do 500miles ?

As far as I can tell most dont do even 400miles. The highest range I can see is for the Merc eqs which claims about 480miles, but in the real world the below is achievable. Am I missing something here, where are the cars that do this range, are they Chinese?

Mercedes-Benz EQS 450+ Review - GreenCarGuide.co.uk

The all-electric Mercedes-Benz EQS 450+ has a driving range of up to 453 miles and it can cover this distance with effortless performance and in supreme comfort.

www.greencarguide.co.uk

Also, this car starts at £100k, so way beyond the reach of 99% of motorists.

The reality is the range of evs is literally miles off ICE cars. Even my V6 diesel Audi can do 600miles easily. Many smaller ICE and hybrid cars can do 700miles easily on a tank.

Eventually I will buy an ev car, so I am following developments and have some interest, but for the majority of motorists like me this will be decision that will be forced on us by the government and not one made by choice.

I think the tax will be done by miles driven… no idea how they will manage this though or . There is no way the government are going to know if I have charged using the 3 pin granny charger, a rapid charger or my 2 year old 7kw home charge point so can’t see it being done via the chargers.

I do not get the range argument/issue, how often does someone drive 600 miles without stopping?

My ID.4 gets 200 miles on a good day, but never has it been an issue. And my job takes me all around the country, every service station now has loads of chargers, Starbucks has them, McDs has them, hotels have them - even most MFG petrol stations now have them - in the time I’ve been to the toilet, and got a coffee the car is topped enough enough to get me to where I need to be. Add in charging at home 85% of the time and suddenly the days of going and picking up a filthy pump, at 6am in the freezing cold are a distant memory.

 

[Alvin-blue-qhd]

I suppose the home charging tax issue is enforcement. How on earth are they going to be able to check how you charge your car. Its impossible.

As regards range, didnt you say yesterday that evs can already do 500miles ?

As far as I can tell most dont do even 400miles. The highest range I can see is for the Merc eqs which claims about 480miles, but in the real world the below is achievable. Am I missing something here, where are the cars that do this range, are they Chinese?

Mercedes-Benz EQS 450+ Review - GreenCarGuide.co.uk

The all-electric Mercedes-Benz EQS 450+ has a driving range of up to 453 miles and it can cover this distance with effortless performance and in supreme comfort.

www.greencarguide.co.uk

Also, this car starts at £100k, so way beyond the reach of 99% of motorists.

The reality is the range of evs is literally miles off ICE cars. Even my V6 diesel Audi can do 600miles easily. Many smaller ICE and hybrid cars can do 700miles easily on a tank.

Eventually I will buy an ev car, so I am following developments and have some interest, but for the majority of motorists like me this will be decision that will be forced on us by the government and not one made by choice.

PHEV(plug-in hybrid electric vehicle) can achieve a range exceeding 2,400 kilometers under ideal conditions, with prices under £15,000.

 

[Pontypool Blue]

Hydrogen will be the next big thing after every government in the world has forced us all into EV's.

Every big car manufacturer/ group is exploring hydrogen. They did the same with electric, R&D the crap out of it.

This is just not true. Hydrogen has been binned as a fuel for small vehicles. No-one is exploring hydrogen any more those that were have stopped

 

[inbetween]

Well I drive up to the north east and back and regularly. I can do that easily on one tank of fuel. I can't with an ev. If you dont have a drive , it is really inconvenient to charge. And to be honest when I want to go anywhere, I do it in one go. I dont want to be sitting around waiting for a charger and then spending 40mins charging. I've seen teslas waiting for space to charge at Keele services so please dont tell me people dont have to queue.

And as regards the cost, they are only cheaper if you charge at home, everyone thinks that the costs will soar as the Government replaces the lost fuel and road tax they get from ICEs. That is £32billion a year currently.

Force people into buying them then screw them with the tax rises when the choice of an ICE has been removed is clearly the Government plan.

I do agree if you can't get a charger at home then that's going to be a problem.

I have a Tesla and I reckon I've only used the superchargers about 10 times. The overriding factor on stopping is the person driving because surely you can't drive 200 miles/3hrs without needing the toilet?

The last time I used a supercharger the car was fully charged by the time I'd been to the toilet and got a coffee. Range nowadays isn't the problem that folk make it out to be.

We recently did Center Parcs and they have chargers there and we did the lakes recently and the hotel had a charger so stopping has never really been needed. The few times I've had to stop we've been going on one-off trips down south but then what is 20 minutes?

 

[pirate]

Well I drive up to the north east and back and regularly. I can do that easily on one tank of fuel. I can't with an ev. If you dont have a drive , it is really inconvenient to charge. And to be honest when I want to go anywhere, I do it in one go. I dont want to be sitting around waiting for a charger and then spending 40mins charging. I've seen teslas waiting for space to charge at Keele services so please dont tell me people dont have to queue.

And as regards the cost, they are only cheaper if you charge at home, everyone thinks that the costs will soar as the Government replaces the lost fuel and road tax they get from ICEs. That is £32billion a year currently.

Force people into buying them then screw them with the tax rises when the choice of an ICE has been removed is clearly the Government plan.

EV vehicles now pay road tax, so no change revenue from road tax

Fuel tax is 24 biillion a year, or 850 quid per household or 71 quid a month.
Most households have two adults so you would be looking at 35 quid a month per person
average wage in UK is 3k per month, so an increase of 1% on income tax would cover the loss.
but it wouldn't be an increase in tax, just a change in how the tax is collected

 

[Pontypool Blue]

Absolutely will happen. From 2027, all home chargers have to be smart chargers. The smart bit being it is connected to the internet.
This will allow them to see how much electric was used to charge the car. You will then be charged accordingly.
The same will happen with public chargers. The Tax will be built in, or even billed separate as car ID is a thing.
Car ID will also make public charging easier. Just plug into any public charger, and charging will happen. Tesla already do this with Tesla chargers. They are then billed to there prefered account. My Renault EV has this built in and can use Tesla chargers. We are just waiting for Tesla to allow car ID with other brands.

Driving EV's isn't about saving money. It is to stop the dependence on fossil fuels, and influence from countries that produce them. Secondly, the health benefits from reducing inner city pollution is also significant.
I think taxing from electric used is better/simpler than multiple other ideas like pay per mile and tyre emission tax.

I Disagree, If they start charging me using my smart charger data i will slow charge overnight on a standard 3 pin plug, and if they manage to find a work around for that (which I don't believe they can) then I'll re-arrange my solar system to go to the battery direct to the car.
I think road pricing is easier for a government, although I will be mighty pissed off if they do. personally I think they should just increase fuel duty by 10p per litre per year to make up for the shortfall in tax and that should focus people a bit more into making a better choice.
Can't see EV's being taxed to make up for the falling fuel tax revenue for a least 5 years so enjoy free motoring until then.

 

[inbetween]

I Disagree, If they start charging me using my smart charger data i will slow charge overnight on a standard 3 pin plug, and if they manage to find a work around for that (which I don't believe they can) then I'll re-arrange my solar system to go to the battery direct to the car.
I think road pricing is easier for a government, although I will be mighty pissed off if they do. personally I think they should just increase fuel duty by 10p per litre per year to make up for the shortfall in tax and that should focus people a bit more into making a better choice.
Can't see EV's being taxed to make up for the falling fuel tax revenue for a least 5 years so enjoy free motoring until then.

Pay per mile could work out cheaper for many EV drivers. The current tax is £195 so if you did less miles then it could work out cheaper. The people who drive more would pay more so it does seem fairer.

The biggest thing I disagree with on EV tax is the higher rate for £40k+ value cars as EV's do stray easily into that price territory. £620 per year tax to drive a non-emissions car is just outrageous.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

PHEV(plug-in hybrid electric vehicle) can achieve a range exceeding 2,400 kilometers under ideal conditions, with prices under £15,000.

Which one, link please?