Etihad Campus, Stadium and Collar Site Development Thread

[fbloke]

Re: Etihad Campus, Stadium Development and Collar Site (cont

We aren't talking about the benefits: they are obvious. We are talking about what sort of Return on Investment we can acually expect by taking this route.

The Barca Academy's yearly budget is about €10m and one I presume we'll be in the same area as.

Let's call it the £10m a year that you did earlier which is 20% highest than theirs and a decent estimate. We'll call the construction a £150m expenditure.

Unless we produce the best player in the world ever and sell him, we're almost certainly not going to get a ROI any time in the next 20 years.

I was going to mention the fallacy of DD's figures earlier but you have now perpetrated the same inaccuracies
Regardless of the CFA we still have to spend the yearly amount on upkeep on three separate facilities ie Platt Lane, Carrington and Ewan Fields
Forgetting the benefits of a much needed upgrade, world class facilities and a 5 star academy that can take youngsters from further than the permitted one and half hours traveling time, we won't be paying rent to third parties

As the old adage goes, renting is dead money, owning is an investment.

So when you do your figures you should also offset the current costs of our poorer facilities

Any ROI numbers offered up are predicated on a flawed logic.

The assume firstly that the academy will produce talent that others see value in.

Secondly they assume that there will be a rarity value to that talent but as every PL and Championship club are developing the best academies they can for the same reasons meaning that there will be a glut of talent being produced.

Lastly ROI numbers fail to recognise the cost of such a project in real terms. To take a single, decent 16 year old and develop them through to 18 costs approximately £1/4m as a base figure. With an intake of 20 kids per year at that age just to break even you would have to sell talent worth £5m.

Remind me again how much we made from the likes of Wabara recently?

 

[fbloke]

Re: Etihad Campus, Stadium Development and Collar Site (cont

The Barca Academy's yearly budget is about €10m and one I presume we'll be in the same area as.

Let's call it the £10m a year that you did earlier which is 20% highest than theirs and a decent estimate. We'll call the construction a £150m expenditure.

Unless we produce the best player in the world ever and sell him, we're almost certainly not going to get a ROI any time in the next 20 years.

I was going to mention the fallacy of DD's figures earlier but you have now perpetrated the same inaccuracies
Regardless of the CFA we still have to spend the yearly amount on upkeep on three separate facilities ie Platt Lane, Carrington and Ewan Fields
Forgetting the benefits of a much needed upgrade, world class facilities and a 5 star academy that can take youngsters from further than the permitted one and half hours traveling time, we won't be paying rent to third parties

As the old adage goes, renting is dead money, owning is an investment.

So when you do your figures you should also offset the current costs of our poorer facilities

Any ROI numbers offered up are predicated on a flawed logic.

The assume firstly that the academy will produce talent that others see value in.

Secondly they assume that there will be a rarity value to that talent but as every PL and Championship club are developing the best academies they can, and for the same reasons, it means that there will be a glut of talent being produced.

Lastly ROI numbers fail to recognise the cost of such a project in real terms. To take a single, decent 16 year old and develop them through to 18 costs approximately £1/4m as a base figure. With an intake of 20 kids per year at that age just to break even you would have to sell talent worth £5m.

Remind me again how much we made from the likes of Wabara recently?

 

[jrb]

Re: Etihad Campus, Stadium Development and Collar Site (cont

We aren't talking about the benefits: they are obvious. We are talking about what sort of Return on Investment we can acually expect by taking this route.

The Barca Academy's yearly budget is about €10m and one I presume we'll be in the same area as.

Let's call it the £10m a year that you did earlier which is 20% highest than theirs and a decent estimate. We'll call the construction a £150m expenditure.

Unless we produce the best player in the world ever and sell him, we're almost certainly not going to get a ROI any time in the next 20 years.

I was going to mention the fallacy of DD's figures earlier but you have now perpetrated the same inaccuracies
Regardless of the CFA we still have to spend the yearly amount on upkeep on three separate facilities ie Platt Lane, Carrington and Ewan Fields
Forgetting the benefits of a much needed upgrade, world class facilities and a 5 star academy that can take youngsters from further than the permitted one and half hours traveling time, we won't be paying rent to third parties

As the old adage goes, renting is dead money, owning is an investment.

So when you do your figures you should also offset the current costs of our poorer facilities

That's a very good point.

Not only that, but sponsors will also pay us for utilizing the new training academy.

Reportedly Aon are sponsoring United's Carrington training academy for £160mill.

I appreciate it's United, but look at it's location, and the access it doesn't afford.

No compare it to the location and access to our new training academy. Located next to the stadium, close to the city centre, and with visible access all around the training academy. How much is that worth?

And don't forget, it will eventually be adjacent to one of the biggest international and national leisure destinations in the World.

As they say, it's a no brainer.

 

[BobKowalski]

Re: Etihad Campus, Stadium Development and Collar Site (cont

You have (eventually) the top team in Asia/Australia, North America, Europe (PL), Africa playing the same brand of football, similar kits, badges, philosophies etc. At the hub is MCFC and the 'best training and medical complex in sport'. You can leverage commercial deals for the Group on a global basis or just at a country level and making everyone feel that they are a 'Cityzen' (yeah okay I know but they are deadly serious about this shit). You have Arsenal fans who will also be fans of say Melbourne City, ManU fans becoming fans of NYFC and so on. Effectively as a commercial partner you are looking to sell your brand not just to fans of MCFC but every fucker on the planet who happens to like football. And the City Football Group will always be smiling and will always be a friend and benefactor to everyone everywhere especially if that 'everyone' has their hands on the levers of power. A bit like SPECTRE but nicer.

Football clubs are still relatively small beer when it comes to turnover and this is about turning a modest turnover as it stands into a global super brand that sucks in money on an international and national level. This was always the plan. FFP was a block in the road that is now in City's rear view mirror. Everyone runs around clucking with horror at the 'implications' of Lampard being loaned to City and 'what it means' when it means fuck all. Lampard is a distraction that City did for the lolz (well OK they didn't but it is fucking funny) while they get on with the serious biz of actually ruling the world.

Excellent post

I'm sure there will be some FIFA ploy to stop this global domination though. Currently there are club ownership restrictions within the same country/continent and I feel this will have to extend to global preventions when City start feeding their youth players to sides abroad and can avoid FFP by buying a player for NYCFC and loaning to MCFC. That being said, I think FFP will start to fall flat on its face within too long as clubs start to challenge it as it proves to be just a way of preserving the elite clubs at the top.

Can't see FIFA acting any time soon and not while Blatter is running it. Who does Blatter depend on to keep him in power? Asian, African and other smaller Federations. Where are City likely to be spreading their largesse? Asia, Africa. Blatter is more than happy to stick it to UEFA and their 'bullying, colonial and racist ways' so why would FIFA stop potential benefits flowing to the areas that keep the current leadership in power?

FFP has shot its bolt and it missed. We are not setting up NYFC to game FFP. You don't get the New York Yankees on board with a 20% co share if its just a patsy club to feed players to MCFC on the cheap. Thats mundane, and unimaginative thinking. Every one of these sister clubs will be run seriously and for the primary benefit of that club and by succeeding in its own right it will benefit the City Football Group as a whole. Players from our youth system will play for NYFC which benefits us and the players but for it to work it has to ultimately benefit NYFC the most. Playing silly buggers just to game UEFA and FFP will result in NYFC failing because no one in the US will take it seriously. And why should they if we don't?

Gentlemen. That sound you hear is the sound of a stable door shutting and the scratching of heads as Wenger, Gill et al try to figure out where the fucking horse went.

 

[Zubrman]

Re: Etihad Campus, Stadium Development and Collar Site (cont

Excellent post

I'm sure there will be some FIFA ploy to stop this global domination though. Currently there are club ownership restrictions within the same country/continent and I feel this will have to extend to global preventions when City start feeding their youth players to sides abroad and can avoid FFP by buying a player for NYCFC and loaning to MCFC. That being said, I think FFP will start to fall flat on its face within too long as clubs start to challenge it as it proves to be just a way of preserving the elite clubs at the top.

Can't see FIFA acting any time soon and not while Blatter is running it. Who does Blatter depend on to keep him in power? Asian, African and other smaller Federations. Where are City likely to be spreading their largesse? Asia, Africa. Blatter is more than happy to stick it to UEFA and their 'bullying, colonial and racist ways' so why would FIFA stop potential benefits flowing to the areas that keep the current leadership in power?

FFP has shot its bolt and it missed. We are not setting up NYFC to game FFP. You don't get the New York Yankees on board with a 20% co share if its just a patsy club to feed players to MCFC on the cheap. Thats mundane, and unimaginative thinking. Every one of these sister clubs will be run seriously and for the primary benefit of that club and by succeeding in its own right it will benefit the City Football Group as a whole. Players from our youth system will play for NYFC which benefits us and the players but for it to work it has to ultimately benefit NYFC the most. Playing silly buggers just to game UEFA and FFP will result in NYFC failing because no one in the US will take it seriously. And why should they if we don't?

Gentlemen. That sound you hear is the sound of a stable door shutting and the scratching of heads as Wenger, Gill et al try to figure out where the fucking horse went.

Hear fucking hear!

 

[Shaelumstash]

Re: Etihad Campus, Stadium Development and Collar Site (cont

Excellent post

I'm sure there will be some FIFA ploy to stop this global domination though. Currently there are club ownership restrictions within the same country/continent and I feel this will have to extend to global preventions when City start feeding their youth players to sides abroad and can avoid FFP by buying a player for NYCFC and loaning to MCFC. That being said, I think FFP will start to fall flat on its face within too long as clubs start to challenge it as it proves to be just a way of preserving the elite clubs at the top.

Can't see FIFA acting any time soon and not while Blatter is running it. Who does Blatter depend on to keep him in power? Asian, African and other smaller Federations. Where are City likely to be spreading their largesse? Asia, Africa. Blatter is more than happy to stick it to UEFA and their 'bullying, colonial and racist ways' so why would FIFA stop potential benefits flowing to the areas that keep the current leadership in power?

FFP has shot its bolt and it missed. We are not setting up NYFC to game FFP. You don't get the New York Yankees on board with a 20% co share if its just a patsy club to feed players to MCFC on the cheap. Thats mundane, and unimaginative thinking. Every one of these sister clubs will be run seriously and for the primary benefit of that club and by succeeding in its own right it will benefit the City Football Group as a whole. Players from our youth system will play for NYFC which benefits us and the players but for it to work it has to ultimately benefit NYFC the most. Playing silly buggers just to game UEFA and FFP will result in NYFC failing because no one in the US will take it seriously. And why should they if we don't?

Gentlemen. That sound you hear is the sound of a stable door shutting and the scratching of heads as Wenger, Gill et al try to figure out where the fucking horse went.

Sorry, bit of a bug bear, but you keep referring to New York City FC as "NYFC". You're missing out the "C" which really is the most important letter!

 

[BobKowalski]

Re: Etihad Campus, Stadium Development and Collar Site (cont

I'm sure there will be some FIFA ploy to stop this global domination though. Currently there are club ownership restrictions within the same country/continent and I feel this will have to extend to global preventions when City start feeding their youth players to sides abroad and can avoid FFP by buying a player for NYCFC and loaning to MCFC. That being said, I think FFP will start to fall flat on its face within too long as clubs start to challenge it as it proves to be just a way of preserving the elite clubs at the top.

Can't see FIFA acting any time soon and not while Blatter is running it. Who does Blatter depend on to keep him in power? Asian, African and other smaller Federations. Where are City likely to be spreading their largesse? Asia, Africa. Blatter is more than happy to stick it to UEFA and their 'bullying, colonial and racist ways' so why would FIFA stop potential benefits flowing to the areas that keep the current leadership in power?

FFP has shot its bolt and it missed. We are not setting up NYFC to game FFP. You don't get the New York Yankees on board with a 20% co share if its just a patsy club to feed players to MCFC on the cheap. Thats mundane, and unimaginative thinking. Every one of these sister clubs will be run seriously and for the primary benefit of that club and by succeeding in its own right it will benefit the City Football Group as a whole. Players from our youth system will play for NYFC which benefits us and the players but for it to work it has to ultimately benefit NYFC the most. Playing silly buggers just to game UEFA and FFP will result in NYFC failing because no one in the US will take it seriously. And why should they if we don't?

Gentlemen. That sound you hear is the sound of a stable door shutting and the scratching of heads as Wenger, Gill et al try to figure out where the fucking horse went.

Sorry, bit of a bug bear, but you keep referring to New York City FC as "NYFC". You're missing out the "C" which really is the most important letter!

Of all the letters in all the words I had to miss out that one...

 

[mostonbluemark]

Re: Etihad Campus, Stadium Development and Collar Site (cont

For those who question the ROI and other financial indicators are thinking too narrow if you think its all about producing talent and selling it on. That's a part of it but there are other numerous factors to take into account. The additional sponsorship, the squeeze on paying higher salaries, the cheaper infrastructure costs, depreciation, probably tens or even hundreds of different line items. Think out of the box and you'll be surprised at the options.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Re: Etihad Campus, Stadium Development and Collar Site (cont

Not sure if some are on the wind up questioning benefits of CFA, if you have the money and ambition to make your club "the best" having the "best" facilities is a must. The CFA is also unique, certainly in this country, with everything being housed literally across the road from the stadium, it will be the envy of the football world, players young and old will want to be a part of it. It demonstrates we mean business long-term and not just "a rich man's play-thing."

The City group is a little harder to get head around as the benefits aren't as clear to see, but these business people always talk about "brands." Having "sister" clubs in emerging football markets enhances our brand, the fact all three clubs have synergies enhances the brand of all three, it's mutually beneficial both short-term and long-term. I'm not a business person so as the benefits aren't as tangible it isn't easy to see the benefits but one thing Mansour and Mubarak have demonstrated is how good businessmen they are (or how good the businessmen they pay are) so it would be silly to think they don't know what they are doing.

We aren't talking about the benefits: they are obvious. We are talking about what sort of Return on Investment we can acually expect by taking this route.

The Barca Academy's yearly budget is about €10m and one I presume we'll be in the same area as.

Let's call it the £10m a year that you did earlier which is 20% highest than theirs and a decent estimate. We'll call the construction a £150m expenditure.

Unless we produce the best player in the world ever and sell him, we're almost certainly not going to get a ROI any time in the next 20 years.

You appear to be be only one getting it here, although I have no idea about the figures. Obviously there may be some intangible benefits, like persuading players to come who might not otherwise, especially young ones. But otherwise it's a massive spend. I'm not accusing the club of going into it blindly: of course they won't be. But it's an extremely bold investment which requires an enormous return to make it worthwhile; short, medium and long term.

This is not about whether it's a desirable thing to do this. Of course it is, and of course it will improve the club. But this thing has ultimately been done to pay for itself and then turn a profit, like all Abu Dhabi investments. Otherwise it's a waste of money.

I understand that city's profile mirrors Abu Dhabi, and that (probably combined with an element of it being a vanity/fun project) is why they accept the business running at an irrecuperable cumulative loss. But the club is clearly gunning like mad to at least get close to or into the black.

This has to be a risky way to try to achieve that. The good news, I suppose, is that if/when there are teething troubles (just like with the building of the football club) the well won't run dry. Because Sale Sharks or Stockport County aren't going to be buying this off us.

It's going to be intriguing to see how this works in reality.

 

[FanchesterCity]

Re: Etihad Campus, Stadium Development and Collar Site (cont

People seem to be expecting we unearth a diamond who might pay back huge dividends, but what about low profit, high volume?
We might ship out 20 players each season and get 500K for each, PLUS we might also have addons attached should they be sold on, or turn into a huge success etc.

But there's more to it that purely the function of an academy. it will house a school, the Women's team, a great deal (if not all) of our admin facilities, and host a large number of community events throughout the year. We shouldn't underestimate the PR value either.... it's one thing to 'talk' of becoming a truly great club, but many sponsors and the media need some convincing. As a result we are demonstrating a very clear intention to put our money where our mouth is.

Let's look at things another way.... if there was no FFP in place, and we just wanted to spend billions, then in theory we could have done that too - and where's the ROI there? Of course we'd win trophies, boost our revenue, and increase out turnover, but it would still take 20 years to pay back the investment.

e.g.
1 billion spending spree = 50 million PROFIT (not revenue) required for 20 years.

So similar principles would apply even without an academy.

I don't think it's going to be a huge money maker for us, but I don't think it'll be a white elephant either. It does allow us to increase our revenues though (albeit by spending a fortune to build it, but with 'infrastructure' spend exemption under FFP).