Ancient Citizen
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Also please keep in mind that Europe has gone more than 50 years without a major war because of NATO.
The EU has got sweet FA to do with it.
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EU Referendum Thread
- Thread starter GresleyChris
- Start date
The EU has got sweet FA to do with it.
gordondaviesmoustache
Well-Known Member
NATO has played its part, but to say the EU has played no role whatsoever shows an inability to think objectively about the subject.Also please keep in mind that Europe has gone more than 50 years without a major war because of NATO.
The EU has got sweet FA to do with it.
Ancient Citizen
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All military cooperation since the second world war, between the western powers, has been via the membership of NATO. We have no miltary alliances based on membership of the EU. As has been mentioned many times, this was simply an organisation originally to promote and protect trade between member states, no military alliances were struck, to my knowledge. Other than the NATO umbrella, how did the EU respond to the threat from the Soviet Bloc?NATO has played its part, but to say the EU has played no role whatsoever shows an inability to think objectively about the subject.
Since the original concept of a common market, the EU has morphed into a bureaucratic leviathan, but I've not seen any agreements regarding defence policy coming to the fore.
gordondaviesmoustache
Well-Known Member
Your reply underlines my point.All military cooperation since the second world war, between the western powers, has been via the membership of NATO. We have no miltary alliances based on membership of the EU. As has been mentioned many times, this was simply an organisation originally to promote and protect trade between member states, no military alliances were struck, to my knowledge. Other than the NATO umbrella, how did the EU respond to the threat from the Soviet Bloc?
Since the original concept of a common market, the EU has morphed into a bureaucratic leviathan, but I've not seen any agreements regarding defence policy coming to the fore.
It is axiomatic that countries who openly trade with each other through the mechanism of the free movement of people, goods and capital are less likely to go to war with each other. This is manifest. To what extent is a matter of debate, but to argue the existence of the EEC/EU existence has had no impact on peace whatsoever within Europe is utterly absurd. The evidence of European history prior to the founding of the EEC further supports this.
Your reply underlines my point.
It is axiomatic that countries who openly trade with each other through the mechanism of the free movement of people, goods and capital are less likely to go to war with each other. This is manifest. To what extent is a matter of debate, but to argue the existence of the EEC/EU existence has had no impact on peace whatsoever within Europe is utterly absurd. The evidence of European history prior to the founding of the EEC further supports this.
We had free trade with the common market. I'd argue that the EU has added nothing to that, that would reduce the chance of war in Europe.
Rascal
El Presidente
All military cooperation since the second world war, between the western powers, has been via the membership of NATO. .
No it has not. France was not a member of NATO between the years 1966 and 2009
Ancient Citizen
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It is axiomatic that countries who openly trade with each other through the mechanism of the free movement of people, goods and capital are less likely to go to war with each other. This is manifest. To what extent is a matter of debate, but to argue the existence of the EEC/EU existence has had no impact on peace whatsoever within Europe is utterly absurd. The evidence of European history prior to the founding of the EEC further supports this.[/QUOTE]
To take your point to it's logical conclusion would mean, as we're so happy-clappy, busily trading and mutually respecting ourselves, that there would be no need for NATO, as the scenario of war is unthinkable. I understand what you're saying about war being less likely between member states, but that is not the point being debated; Pirate stated that there has been no war in Europe for 50 years because of the EU, (or inferred that). My point is that there has been no war because the protection towards allied states is provided by NATO.
If the Soviet Union had invaded, the EU treaties about who can move where, or which commodity can be traded there, would be meaningless, the protection would come from NATO/ America,( the largest member ). War between members of the EU is unlikely, for sure, but a war targeted against Europe would involve the allied military command, which is NATO. Should Britain pull out of the EU, do you think that our defense would be compromised because we're not in the EU? Of course it wouldn't, neither would Norway's, the protection doesn't come from Brussels.
To take your point to it's logical conclusion would mean, as we're so happy-clappy, busily trading and mutually respecting ourselves, that there would be no need for NATO, as the scenario of war is unthinkable. I understand what you're saying about war being less likely between member states, but that is not the point being debated; Pirate stated that there has been no war in Europe for 50 years because of the EU, (or inferred that). My point is that there has been no war because the protection towards allied states is provided by NATO.
If the Soviet Union had invaded, the EU treaties about who can move where, or which commodity can be traded there, would be meaningless, the protection would come from NATO/ America,( the largest member ). War between members of the EU is unlikely, for sure, but a war targeted against Europe would involve the allied military command, which is NATO. Should Britain pull out of the EU, do you think that our defense would be compromised because we're not in the EU? Of course it wouldn't, neither would Norway's, the protection doesn't come from Brussels.
Ancient Citizen
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My mistake, I forgot about France opting out; however, this didn't manifestly affect the overall alliance too badly, the point remains.No it has not. France was not a member of NATO between the years 1966 and 2009
gordondaviesmoustache
Well-Known Member
Your first sentence completely misleads the point I am advancing. I have already acknowledged the pivotal role NATO played, and plays, in maintaining peace in Europe. Why does that militate against the point I am advancing in relation to the EU in any way? I believe strong defence is important, but I also believe that co-operation between states, whatever form it takes, will reduce the likelihood of conflict. Rather than be at odds with each other, both those propositions compliment each other, as they both provide a degree of stability, which reduces the likelihood of war.To take your point to it's logical conclusion would mean, as we're so happy-clappy, busily trading and mutually respecting ourselves, that there would be no need for NATO, as the scenario of war is unthinkable. I understand what you're saying about war being less likely between member states, but that is not the point being debated; Pirate stated that there has been no war in Europe for 50 years because of the EU, (or inferred that). My point is that there has been no war because the protection towards allied states is provided by NATO.
If the Soviet Union had invaded, the EU treaties about who can move where, or which commodity can be traded there, would be meaningless, the protection would come from NATO/ America,( the largest member ). War between members of the EU is unlikely, for sure, but a war targeted against Europe would involve the allied military command, which is NATO. Should Britain pull out of the EU, do you think that our defense would be compromised because we're not in the EU? Of course it wouldn't, neither would Norway's, the protection doesn't come from Brussels.
gordondaviesmoustache
Well-Known Member
We are where we are. My point remains.We had free trade with the common market. I'd argue that the EU has added nothing to that, that would reduce the chance of war in Europe.