EU referendum

[Chippy_boy]

I do not have an argument, to be honest if the UK left Europe it would be a bit of excitement to see what actually would happen and I am fortunate enough to not be unduly affected either way, but just as I have no argument neither do the leave campaign which is why this is all waste of time. We ain't leaving

Having totally failed to demonstrate how we'd be better off, the Brexit argument comes down to (a) loss of Sovereignty and (b) loss of control of borders (from EU migrants).

(a) is certainly true, but the debate that isn't happening is, so fucking what. There's no evidence that left to our own devices we can run things any better, and if you look at the state we were in before we joined, plenty of evidence that actually we might be worse. Sick man of Europe, huge unemployment, strikes, 26% interest rates, 12 weeks to plead with BT to get a phone installed, British Leyland, need I say more. Oh, those were the days, when we had our Sovereignty.

Now we can't decide how much cocoa solids need to be in a bar of chocolate. Boo fucking hoo. Much of the legislation coming from Brussels - employment law, goods and services, human rights - is actually stuff that most of the country would regard as a good thing. As is the access to the EU markets and the ability to trade all around the world through the EU agreements. So we lose some Sovereignty, but are we losing it regarding anything *important*? Are we being dragged into a war we don't wan't to be in? Are we having our tax rates set for us? Are we being told how to run our schools, hospitals, police, army? No.

(b) is probably the biggest argument for leaving. But putting the emotions to one side, have you seen the queues of Polish and Estonians and what have you at the dole office? No, neither have I. They come here to work and often to do the shitty jobs that many people here don't want to do. They earn their money and pay their taxes and contribute to our aging population's pensions. Do they put a huge burden on our public resources? Yes. So we need to think about how to manage that. We probably need to spend more on schools and hospitals than we otherwise might. Which we can do with the increased GDP and tax revenues. Next.

Oh, there's does't appear to be a next.

 

[Monkfish]

something was pointed out to me last night
"has anyone else noticed that the 24/7 wall to wall tv coverage of the Calais refugee camps has completely disappeared off our tv news since the referendum kicked into full swing ?"

should have called the referendum years ago if that is all it took to sort out Calais and the French

Did the same person point out to you it's also sorted out Syria? That's how tv news works, is only news if there isn't something more interesting to talk about. You want to go down the news route how much coverage did you see of the Ecuadorian earthquake last week? ...now if that was San Francisco

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Looks like the out camp is increasing it's share on here, by a fair bit from the looks of it.
So as far as this amusing forum is concerned, the inners are shit at convincing anyone.
Fascinating stuff, with a goodly few weeks left, so come on Europhiles, buck up.

 

[hgblue]

Having totally failed to demonstrate how we'd be better off, the Brexit argument comes down to (a) loss of Sovereignty and (b) loss of control of borders (from EU migrants).

(a) is certainly true, but the debate that isn't happening is, so fucking what. There's no evidence that left to our own devices we can run things any better, and if you look at the state we were in before we joined, plenty of evidence that actually we might be worse. Sick man of Europe, huge unemployment, strikes, 26% interest rates, 12 weeks to plead with BT to get a phone installed, British Leyland, need I say more. Oh, those were the days, when we had our Sovereignty.

Now we can't decide how much cocoa solids need to be in a bar of chocolate. Boo fucking hoo. Much of the legislation coming from Brussels - employment law, goods and services, human rights - is actually stuff that most of the country would regard as a good thing. As is the access to the EU markets and the ability to trade all around the world through the EU agreements. So we lose some Sovereignty, but are we losing it regarding anything *important*? Are we being dragged into a war we don't wan't to be in? Are we having our tax rates set for us? Are we being told how to run our schools, hospitals, police, army? No.

(b) is probably the biggest argument for leaving. But putting the emotions to one side, have you seen the queues of Polish and Estonians and what have you at the dole office? No, neither have I. They come here to work and often to do the shitty jobs that many people here don't want to do. They earn their money and pay their taxes and contribute to our aging population's pensions. Do they put a huge burden on our public resources? Yes. So we need to think about how to manage that. We probably need to spend more on schools and hospitals than we otherwise might. Which we can do with the increased GDP and tax revenues. Next.

Oh, there's does't appear to be a next.

To be fair I've posted ten reasons for Brexit earlier in this thread, but no-one on the Remain side wanted to discuss them. Their attitude is well yes the return of sovereignty would be a good thing, the return of the supremecy of our supreme court would be a good thing, the ability to control the number of people coming here would be a good thing, the ability to assess the skills this country needs and admit people based on that rather than their location would be a good thing, the ability to retrieve the close to 10 billion quid net the EU costs us and spend it on our priorities would be a good thing, the ability to regain our seat on the WTO would be a good thing, the ability to strike trade deals with the growing economies in the rest of the world economy would be a good thing, the ability to free our businesses from reams of EU red tape would be a good thing, but you can't guarantee what a post Brexit UK would look like would you? An unanswerable question because the negotiations haven't taken place yet, and they know it, ha ha, they say, got you there, totally ignoring the fact that they can't guarantee what a post Remain UK would look like, although I'd argue that the direction of travel is clear. If we vote to remain some of you are going to feel very silly in 5-10 years time.

 

[EalingBlue2]

There's no schools because the government has washed it's hands of education and decided to let the private sector be in control. According to the 2011 census the population has actually shrunk by a couple of thousand.
Golf courses in England.

It is amazing how many people fall for the shameless propaganda that poor immigrants and not the greed of the wealthy are at fault for the problems in education and health.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Looks like the out camp is increasing it's share on here, by a fair bit from the looks of it.
So as far as this amusing forum is concerned, the inners are shit at convincing anyone.
Fascinating stuff, with a goodly few weeks left, so come on Europhiles, buck up.

Outers are like United fans or Christians you don't argue with them because you think you will change their mind, you do it because one day you know that they will know that you were always right.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Having totally failed to demonstrate how we'd be better off, the Brexit argument comes down to (a) loss of Sovereignty and (b) loss of control of borders (from EU migrants).

(a) is certainly true, but the debate that isn't happening is, so fucking what. There's no evidence that left to our own devices we can run things any better, and if you look at the state we were in before we joined, plenty of evidence that actually we might be worse. Sick man of Europe, huge unemployment, strikes, 26% interest rates, 12 weeks to plead with BT to get a phone installed, British Leyland, need I say more. Oh, those were the days, when we had our Sovereignty.

Now we can't decide how much cocoa solids need to be in a bar of chocolate. Boo fucking hoo. Much of the legislation coming from Brussels - employment law, goods and services, human rights - is actually stuff that most of the country would regard as a good thing. As is the access to the EU markets and the ability to trade all around the world through the EU agreements. So we lose some Sovereignty, but are we losing it regarding anything *important*? Are we being dragged into a war we don't wan't to be in? Are we having our tax rates set for us? Are we being told how to run our schools, hospitals, police, army? No.

(b) is probably the biggest argument for leaving. But putting the emotions to one side, have you seen the queues of Polish and Estonians and what have you at the dole office? No, neither have I. They come here to work and often to do the shitty jobs that many people here don't want to do. They earn their money and pay their taxes and contribute to our aging population's pensions. Do they put a huge burden on our public resources? Yes. So we need to think about how to manage that. We probably need to spend more on schools and hospitals than we otherwise might. Which we can do with the increased GDP and tax revenues. Next.

Oh, there's does't appear to be a next.

Very fair points - don't understand the emotion of sovereignty, it's so feudal I will fight and die so the wealthy powerful people who rule me and don't give a fuck about me can have more power than some other wealthy powerful person who looks a bit different or who lives somewhere else or has a different language. It's utterly baffling but it has been a way to control the weak and gullible since time began.

As for the second point immigrants are proven more productive and if they are keeping people out of work that's capitalism for you.

 

[sir baconface]

Haha. Just heard it pointed out Obama used the English "back of the queue" instead of the American "back of the line"...

 

[Cheesy]

I'm still undecided about which way to vote, but I tell you something.... every single argument I've heard from the 'In' campaign is actually a negative argument about what will happen should we leave.

It's well known that being negative (even if you're right) can turn people against your point of view (it's partly due to this that the Scotland vote was so much closer than people originally thought it would be) so I really do feel that the negative 'In' campaign is being counter-productive and could contribute to an 'Out' vote.

So, as an undecided voter, I've got a question for those who definitely want to remain in the EU...

Can I have some positives about what will happen should we vote to stay in the EU? If you can, I'd like specifics about what will improve for us.

If I see any negatives in the answer I'll just ignore it :-)

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

Having totally failed to demonstrate how we'd be better off, the Brexit argument comes down to (a) loss of Sovereignty and (b) loss of control of borders (from EU migrants).

(a) is certainly true, but the debate that isn't happening is, so fucking what. There's no evidence that left to our own devices we can run things any better, and if you look at the state we were in before we joined, plenty of evidence that actually we might be worse. Sick man of Europe, huge unemployment, strikes, 26% interest rates, 12 weeks to plead with BT to get a phone installed, British Leyland, need I say more. Oh, those were the days, when we had our Sovereignty.

Now we can't decide how much cocoa solids need to be in a bar of chocolate. Boo fucking hoo. Much of the legislation coming from Brussels - employment law, goods and services, human rights - is actually stuff that most of the country would regard as a good thing. As is the access to the EU markets and the ability to trade all around the world through the EU agreements. So we lose some Sovereignty, but are we losing it regarding anything *important*? Are we being dragged into a war we don't wan't to be in? Are we having our tax rates set for us? Are we being told how to run our schools, hospitals, police, army? No.

(b) is probably the biggest argument for leaving. But putting the emotions to one side, have you seen the queues of Polish and Estonians and what have you at the dole office? No, neither have I. They come here to work and often to do the shitty jobs that many people here don't want to do. They earn their money and pay their taxes and contribute to our aging population's pensions. Do they put a huge burden on our public resources? Yes. So we need to think about how to manage that. We probably need to spend more on schools and hospitals than we otherwise might. Which we can do with the increased GDP and tax revenues. Next.

Oh, there's does't appear to be a next.

Oh mr chips it's all so black and white in the chips house. What do you want for tea son? Chips . Next.

Imagine explaining to a defector from North Korea democracy. So what we do in democracy is we vote every 5 years for our government and what they do is they give all the power to another unelected body who enact the majority of the laws that govern us. Even when we don't like them there is nothing we can do about it. Indeed even our own government moan regularly about the dictator from Europe. That sounds like just what I left......

If it was so bad leaving and a disaster for world peace , interest rates, business, the polar ice caps, bill and Ben, imre varadi, the nhs, your holidays etc etc why the fuck are we being allowed to vote on it in the first place