EU referendum

[EalingBlue2]

The South Sandwich Isles?

Patagonia to a nice Welsh village?

 

[BigJoe#1]

So put very simply, because I do not fully understand the detail as probably most, if not all posters on here don't.... Does TTIP and TTP mean that the EU and therefore the UK by definition if we vote to remain, will be obliged to cede to US laws or T&C's (call them what you will)?

Very worrying if this is even half true. Talk about giving up sovereignty to the EU, we really would be part of the USofE wouldn't we? That is of course if these stories about TTIP are correct and we remain in, like I said frightening.

Point the way to the back of the line please.

 

[EalingBlue2]

So put very simply, because I do not fully understand the detail as probably most, if not all posters on here don't.... Does TTIP and TTP mean that the EU and therefore the UK by definition if we vote to remain, will be obliged to cede to US laws or T&C's (call them what you will)?

Very worrying if this is even half true. Talk about giving up sovereignty to the EU, we really would be part of the USofE wouldn't we? That is of course if these stories about TTIP are correct and we remain in, like I said frightening.

Point the way to the back of the line please.

The irony is if you really look at much of TTIP is it is the inners it should scare not the outers. The TTIP will systematically wind back regulations , protections etc of the EU, precisely what the out voters wish to do. Whilst there are elements that are where business can take government to court most of TTIP is the freeing of EU "leftie" regulation and is very in line with what out voters want.

If the UK is out of EU and TTIP yes it may be free from American company action but it may be irrelevant as if we are missing out on areas of trade we may not need the action.

TTIP like it or not is absolutely inevitable in the global capitalism we have decided and countries who decide to opt out of agreements or standards will increasingly be on the out (unless like China or India or Asia they are fast growing markets where people are going to get richer and consume much more over the years)

Humans have up sovereignty on the day we started to live in tribes instead of with small families in caves. From that day forth families turned into tribes, tribes into groups of tribes, groups of tribes into small kingdoms, small kingdoms into countries and countries into groups of countries. This will turn into globalisation and does so every day. As King Canute so ably demonstrated trying to turn back the tide of history is impossible and a waste of time, you can embrace it and make the most of the future or you can try and turn back the clock.

Britain will never again be what it was 70 years ago let alone what it was in Victorian times and sooner or later people will have to deep down accept it

 

[BigJoe#1]

When you say global capitalism, do you really mean American capitalism?

Do you think the EU will conform lock, stock and barrel to TTIP.

Yes to either or both of the above questions must surely mean we need to get out, and in saying this I take on board you points about opting out will put us outside of agreements or standards.

Are Australia part of TTIP? If not, in your opinion,would they be happy to conform to it?

 

[EalingBlue2]

When you say global capitalism, do you really mean American capitalism?

Do you think the EU will conform lock, stock and barrel to TTIP.

Yes to either or both of the above questions must surely mean we need to get out, and in saying this I take on board you points about opting out will put us outside of agreements or standards.

Are Australia part of TTIP? If not, in your opinion,would they be happy to conform to it?

Australia is in the TPP with around a dozen countries and frankly the US has been crystal clear under the recent government that economically the Pacific is the future and that it is key to US foreign policy and trade to pivot from Atlantic to pacific .

the TPP and possible of countries like China or Russia joining is precisely why Europe is so desperate to get a deal as TPP is a huge threat to EU (and EEA) access to these big global markets in the TPP and looking to go in to TPP especially in areas of primary production and agriculture etc and most think tanks suggest that this Pacific pivot and the TPP will have a major negative impact on European trade.

These things should be strong arguments for the inners as to leave a trading group just as others join together and try to exclude countries from markets could mean that a Brexit UK would be suffering the US looking away and US Pacific markets locking out UK business at exactly the time the UK could be choosing to lock itself out of others.

With most of Asia looking to TPP and Europe looking to TTIP, China locking down Africa etc who are Britains trading allies going to be? To give some perspective if you look at aus exports to China they dwarf the UKs despite the much smaller economy and free trade agreements are being locked into the growing economies of the world that the EU is struggling with let alone a Britain at the back of the queue

I can't remember the dozen who have signed TPP but I think it's Japan, aus, nz, us, Canada, chile, Peru? Singapore , Malaysia , Vietnam, Mexico and 1 other and aus has signed other deals with Korea and China (as has nz) and they are looking to come in as are Thailand and Indonesia and some other fast growing economies .

 

[BigJoe#1]

Australia is in the TPP with around a dozen countries and frankly the US has been crystal clear under the recent government that economically the Pacific is the future and that it is key to US foreign policy and trade to pivot from Atlantic to pacific .

the TPP and possible of countries like China or Russia joining is precisely why Europe is so desperate to get a deal as TPP is a huge threat to EU (and EEA) access to these big global markets in the TPP and looking to go in to TPP especially in areas of primary production and agriculture etc and most think tanks suggest that this Pacific pivot and the TPP will have a major negative impact on European trade.

These things should be strong arguments for the inners as to leave a trading group just as others join together and try to exclude countries from markets could mean that a Brexit UK would be suffering the US looking away and US Pacific markets locking out UK business at exactly the time the UK could be choosing to lock itself out of others.

With most of Asia looking to TPP and Europe looking to TTIP, China locking down Africa etc who are Britains trading allies going to be? To give some perspective if you look at aus exports to China they dwarf the UKs despite the much smaller economy and free trade agreements are being locked into the growing economies of the world that the EU is struggling with let alone a Britain at the back of the queue

I can't remember the dozen who have signed TPP but I think it's Japan, aus, nz, us, Canada, chile, Peru? Singapore , Malaysia , Vietnam, Mexico and 1 other and aus has signed other deals with Korea and China (as has nz) and they are looking to come in as are Thailand and Indonesia and some other fast growing economies .

Thanks... So which is better?

To conform to American culture, standards and globalisation and allow their Businesses and government to ride rough shod over us and tell us what we can and cannot produce and sell and to whom. Or to be ourselves? Because despite our self deprecating yet greed culture, we haven't done too badly for a relatively small nation.

Quite frankly I don't want my children and grand children to be growing up in the shadow of Uncle Sam. I enjoy the fact that I have the right to express this opinion and would prefer that at a political and trading level we remain in charge of our own destiny as much as we can!

 

[coleridge]

I think there are a lot of dreadlocked sandal wearing dreamers (I blame John Lennon) that believe in romantic environmental rubbish. There was a scare story that the EU were about to ban glyphosate and and ALL the brown bread and lentil eaters came out with a lot of emotional tosh about the bees being threatened by Monsanto and pesticides being introduced by people that had no concern for the environment. You go on any gardening forum and mention pesticides or herbicides and out they all come like a swarm of locusts with the idea that they are all being poisoned by big business. It's stuff like that that makes me fucking angry and if it means that some chemical companies can sue any government that wishes to take us back to the 'good old days' of Laurie Lee's 'Cider with Rosie' then I'm all for TTIP being the conduit to do it. Governments won't ban herbicides or pesticides of course because our present levels of food production rely on farmers being able to use all the technology they can to maintain output. But what the argument does illustrate is that there are a lot of witch like thinkers out there that would happily see us back in the days of horse drawn ploughs and who would like to turn the clock back. They also have a vote and make decisions on emotional twaddle. Lack of an educated electorate is where democracy fails us all.
I'd vote in on that issue alone but there are other issues I'd vote out on so I'm on the fence at the moment but I believe it's all pretty futile hoping for an out vote. The British Ex Pats abroad, mostly in Spain, will be voting us out as will the Scots. Then there is the proposed BBC debate at Wembley where the Government will roll out all the big hitters and will swamp the debate with scare stories. And if Dimbleby gets involved you can more or less gaurantee it will become a BBC exercise in propaganda.

Oh, another climate change apologist. The world is a beautiful place. It's our responsibility to save it. Your response is an attempt at patronisation for reasons unknown. It is you that is spouting 'emotional twaddle'.

 

[grunge]

TTIP is a big issue, but there are very few facts about what it is because its still being drafted, there has been no debate about it yet. a lot of the points will be debated and boiled down, changed etc etc when it comes out of draft.

thing is, in terms of negotians, the EU is actually a bigger power economically than the US so is in a good place to push back on issues that could hurt the EU. there will be give and take on both sides. If we exit the EU it may save us from TTIP, but when it came to trying to negotiate a trade deal with the US we would be in a far worse position and would likely have a lot more forced on us.... assuming we wanted a trade deal with the US that is.

I know people keep going on about the fact we're the 5th biggest economy in the world, but to put it into scale against the US, California's economy alone is nearly the same size as ours.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Thanks... So which is better?

To conform to American culture, standards and globalisation and allow their Businesses and government to ride rough shod over us and tell us what we can and cannot produce and sell and to whom. Or to be ourselves? Because despite our self deprecating yet greed culture, we haven't done too badly for a relatively small nation.

Quite frankly I don't want my children and grand children to be growing up in the shadow of Uncle Sam. I enjoy the fact that I have the right to express this opinion and would prefer that at a political and trading level we remain in charge of our own destiny as much as we can!

Your children and grand children will be looking back nostalgically at Uncle Sam, the chances are by the time of your grandchildren the US will be lucky to be the third biggest world economy and certainly it won't be in a real sense . Your grandchildren will be growing up in a world dominated by Asia and US capitalism will be a nostalgic dream for them. Throughout human history with a blip from the industrial revolution Asia has dominated and it will again soon.

I think it is naiive in the extreme to think a country like the UK can control its destiny, the same , Britain hasn't truly controlled its defence for the best part of a century, hasn't controlled most of its trade for the best part of half a century and when you look at consumption domestically, the money in the City and even power and basic food, fuel and raw materials - Britain controls very little. Even information, media , communications is nearly all controlled beyond the borders.

It is a beautiful idea to live in a world we can regain control but 90% is gone EU or no EU.
You will still get your information on foreign platforms, from foreign media on foreign devices and drive your foreign car to your foreign office where you will eat a foreign lunch before working on your foreign computer over a foreign network, lit by foreign electricity and warmed by foreign gas. At the end of the day having worked hard to transfer money off shore you will go home using more foreign petrol. That is the world Britain played a huge part in creating and America and globalisation we have played a huge part in both. In historic terms the latter is Britain's main contribution to the planet one that some now seem to be rejecting.

Demand and supply and major world powers and growing economies control our destiny in its entirety and whilst Brexiters pretend otherwise it is just a nostalgic dream of the past

 

[blueonblue]

Far from the poor little country some of the remainians on here want to portray, the UK is the 5 biggest economy in the world, our poor little military is still a match for anyone with the exception of the USA/Russia an maybe China as well as a nucular power.
We still have world leading industries, expertease & a skill base that can match up to most as well as influence and goodwill in many parts of the world.

We are more than capable of standing on our own feet and making decisions for our benefit rather than the banking cartel behind the EU, dont listen to the shite about the fluctuation in the pound exit will cause because it is a stable currency unlike the Euro that even the remainians will struggle to defend.

The EU is made up of countries where major political changes are on the cards, it is not the stable utopia to build a future on but a disaster waiting to happen, France and Italy are all but bankrupt, the PIG countries an Greece in an even worse state and the German people are in almost open revolt at footing the bills.
The Dutch have just told the EU to f*ck itself in a referendum, with Hungary & Austria closing the borders amounting to the same thing, Poland has gone even further with an outright refusal to take "refugees" and elected a nationalist government.

Our trade with the EU has declined and has been doing so every year since 1999, the EUs share of the global economy has fallen consistently in the last twenty years while our exports to the rest of the world has grown at twice the rate we export to the EU.

But still the main issue is what it always was, to become once again a free country making its own decisions in control of its own destiny.